Top 11 Secrets of a National Retail Sales Tax

Various | 6-10-05 | Always Right

[expatpat]

Wow! Now I know you are delusional.

[Always Right]

Yes, and rent already includes tax.

You must not have owned too many rentals. Usually no income tax to be paid once you take off your depreciation.

[Phantom Lord]

Leases specify that all taxes are added on top of the rent payment. So grow up and pay up.

I will have to dig out one of my old leases from when I was renting if I have one laying around.

I remember my lease telling me my rent was $1,040 a month and every month I sent a check for $1,040. Did my landlord just out of the goodness of his heart forget to collect the taxes on top of the rent payment?

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

This is a strawman argument that completely ignores that even prostitutes and drug dealers DO NOT pay income taxes but they still have to buy groceries and appliances and furniture and automobiles. No matter how you spin it, this is a net GAIN for the government.

How do you figure? The government already gets the grocer, appliance and furniture maker and automobile manufacturer's and their employee's income tax which is what the sales tax would be replacing. No matter how you figure it, there is a transaction when the drugs etc. are sold to the user where no tax is collected. That user will be paying neither income nor sales tax.

You can argue that drug prices will rise 30% ($100 worth of drugs rises to $130) to offset the dealer's cost of living. But that still only replaces the user's $30 income tax with a $30 price hike to the dealer, who then pays that $30 to the government in sales tax on legitimate products. But that is just a straight pass-through from the user to the government and there is still no tax on the original $100 income or sale by the dealer.

[justshutupandtakeit]

If the doctor has Theresa's accountants the drug dealer is probably paying more.

[Phantom Lord]

This 23%/37% money has to be remitted to the government before he counts his salary.

The doctors salary and business revenue are two seperate things.

[FreedomCalls]

>>The best argument for a sales tax is because it means the government would need to keep NO records on the individual taxpayer.

> Have a social security number, you get a sales tax rebate check each month for NRST on povertylevel of expenditures.

That's a lot more than the "no record" claimed. If it were changed to "minimal record" then I would not argue with it. But as it is written it is a lie.

[The Shootist]

6. Big Government gets Bigger. In the 20 countries where the national sales tax has been implemented, and in each case replaced by necessity by a Value-Added Tax, the amount of federal taxes quickly grew from about 20% of GDP, as currently in the US, to 40% and above of their GDP. Not a promising precedent.

Put together whatever you like. Everyone of the 20 countries you mention above added the sales tax to their existing Income Tax.

Apples and oranges.

[Phantom Lord]

Why would you assume that if a flat tax can be changed a sales tax couldn't be just as easily and deceptively raised?

I don't assume that. I mearly point out to the supporters of the flat tax as the way to go that what we have today was a flat tax.

[expatpat]

I don't quite get...

The point is that the Doctor has to pay sales tax on the services he sells, and, since you keep assuring us that prices won't increase as the NSRT goes on, the Dr. has to eat it. That's the $150K.

[EternalVigilance]

But the drug dealer is still collecting a gross amount and not paying tax on it.

This sentence shows that you just can't imagine a world without an income tax.

Fact is, NO ONE will pay such a tax on ANYTHING.

You're like the institutionalized prisoner who has been locked up for so long that he doesn't want to leave the prison-house, even when the door is left hanging wide open.

[justshutupandtakeit]

The opposition here is because of the fraudulent aguments used to support it and the Pollyannaish assumptions as to how the economy will react. Most of their arguments fly in the face of accepted economic theory as well.

[Blood of Tyrants]

Let me ask you, is there ANYONE who doesn't buy groceries? Do drug dealers buy nice things (jewlery, cars, stereos, cameras, etc.)? BTW, I didn't say drug USER, I said drug DEALER.

Also, if I had my way, I would get rid of the Second Prohibition, too. It has been an even bigger bust than the first where thousands of people were murdered over liquor. If it weren't for the first Prohibition, Ted Kennedy would be just another senile old fool sitting in a rest home because his daddy made his fortune smuggling and selling illegal booze.

[Always Right]

And several hundred billion more in compliance costs. And couple that with the billions spent by individuals to comply with the tax system which will increase their purchasing power, along with no longer having money withheld for federal taxes on their pay check.

The $250 Billion number thrown around is mostly time spent by individuals filling out forms and record keeping based on IRS numbers (which I never take nearly as long as they say). Even granting that that number somehow would factor into businesses reducing costs (which I don't see how for most of it is individual and not business), that still only allows prices to come down 12%, far short of the 30% sales tax.

[Your Nightmare]

This is a strawman argument that completely ignores that even prostitutes and drug dealers DO NOT pay income taxes but they still have to buy groceries and appliances and furniture and automobiles. No matter how you spin it, this is a net GAIN for the government.

But under the current system, the John and the drug buyer paid income tax on the money they are giving to the prositute and drug dealer. They wouldn't under a NRST.

The current system gets the money coming in, a NRST would get the money going out. It's a wash.

[tomakaze]

re: Please tell me at least one of these two alternatives—Flat Tax or NRST
 
k. The feds collect money the way they are supposed to, via excise taxes and tarrifs. any other money is supposed to come from the states by apportionment - meaning a total yearly budget is calculated and states pay by population. say New Hampshire's population is about 8% - then the State of New Hampshire ponys up 8% of the total federal budget. this means the feds would actually have to budget.
a sales tax is a lesser evil than income tax for privacy reasons alone but it's still wrong (the 16th ammendment should be struck down for violating 13th alone, nevermind that it was never properly ratififed) but it's all academic anyway and ignores the bigger issue which is getting federal government out of the numerous areas that it's not constitutionally authorized to be involved in so it cant whine and demand more money.

[ancient_geezer]

Leases specify that all taxes are added on top of the rent payment. So grow up and pay up.

Under HR25, rentals established prior to implementation date of the NRST, are treated as transitional inventory (or business use conversion credit depending on circumstance) and are credited for the amount the NRST would otherwise be on previously established rents.

[balrog666]

I remember my lease telling me my rent was $1,040 a month and every month I sent a check for $1,040. Did my landlord just out of the goodness of his heart forget to collect the taxes on top of the rent payment?

Obviously so - lucky you. Not all landlords are are created equal and neither are leases. My leases break out all sales taxes separately (and in some cases, property taxes) and all my tenants pay them.

[Principled]

The best argument for a sales tax is because it means the government would need to keep NO records on the individual taxpayer.

Then how do individuals get the "pre-bate" checks that are supposed to be sent out every month?

The only requirements for receiving the "pre-bate" are that you are a legal resident and have a valid SSN. You may, if you wish, decline to give the information and forfeit your "pre-bate".

[ThinkDifferent]

The 3rd option is to leave his higher price in place while his competitors do the same, so that all enjoy higher margins.

Which requires that businesses can collude with each other and prevent defections, and if they can do that, they can just raise prices arbitrarily at any time regardless of the tax system. All available evidence suggests that they cannot.