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To: Dimensio
And your "given assumption" happened to be your conclusion . . .

Every assumption entails a conclusion. Assumptions are starting points, basic givens, points of view, premises, what have you. Yes, I begin by having concluded that the words of Genesis are true. When a proposition is made and accepted, then certain conclusions are implicit and explicit. So yes, I assume and conclude at the same time that God created the heavens and the earth in six normal days, and that He continues to sustain them to this very moment.

What is your basis for asserting differently about the origins and purpose of the universe? Do you even have any basis? Do you really believe you are operating without any assumptions or conclusions? If so, you've fooled yourself well, but you don't fool me.

I begin with a "conclusion," and I admit it. Is it a problem if I take your words at face value? Am I assuming a conclusion in so doing? Or must I subject all your statements to the rigors of scientific method before I accept them as true or false or somewhere in between?

And so, upon making this arbitrary decision that "it had to come from somewhere"

Such a decision is far from arbitrary. It would be arbitrary if I had a multiplicity of choices and then spun a spinner to make my choice. This one is about as basic and important as it gets. It is neither an arbitrary decision, nor it is one to be made arbitrarily, because it ultimately governs how I view the universe and interpret what it brings to my reason and senses. If you want to see the essence of "arbitrariness" at play in science, consider the semantic tap-dancing done in the name of "natural selection" and "random mutations;" the late and recent magic wands of evolutionary philosophers.

How do you know that intelligence is even required [to make a tree]?

I infer it from the fact that no other intelligent agent with which I am familiar admits to having the necessary tools and intelligence. What is it that prevents you from making a tree? Is it just a matter of the right mutations and natural selection occuring? What is it that prevents you from making a tree? What is there about a tree that you can design and implement without the aid of intelligence?

279 posted on 06/07/2005 2:29:19 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
What is it that prevents you from making a tree?
 
This...............
 
 
Job 38
 1.  Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:
 2.  "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?
 3.  Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
 4.  "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand.
 5.  Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?
 6.  On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone--
 7.  while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
 8.  "Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb,
 9.  when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness,
 10.  when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place,
 11.  when I said, `This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt'?
 12.  "Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place,
 13.  that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?
 14.  The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
 15.  The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken.
 16.  "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?
 17.  Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death ?
 18.  Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this.
 19.  "What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside?
 20.  Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
 21.  Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!
 22.  "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail,
 23.  which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle?
 24.  What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
 25.  Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm,
 26.  to water a land where no man lives, a desert with no one in it,
 27.  to satisfy a desolate wasteland and make it sprout with grass?
 28.  Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew?
 29.  From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
 30.  when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen?
 31.  "Can you bind the beautiful  Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion?
 32.  Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
 33.  Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up [God's ] dominion over the earth?
 34.  "Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water?
 35.  Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, `Here we are'?
 36.  Who endowed the heart with wisdom or gave understanding to the mind ?
 37.  Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
 38.  when the dust becomes hard and the clods of earth stick together?
 39.  "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions
 40.  when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in a thicket? 
 41.  Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?
Job 39
 1.  "Do you know when the mountain goats give birth? Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
 2.  Do you count the months till they bear? Do you know the time they give birth?
 3.  They crouch down and bring forth their young; their labor pains are ended.
 4.  Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds; they leave and do not return.
 5.  "Who let the wild donkey go free? Who untied his ropes?
 6.  I gave him the wasteland as his home, the salt flats as his habitat.
 7.  He laughs at the commotion in the town; he does not hear a driver's shout.
 8.  He ranges the hills for his pasture and searches for any green thing.
 9.  "Will the wild ox consent to serve you? Will he stay by your manger at night?
 10.  Can you hold him to the furrow with a harness? Will he till the valleys behind you?
 11.  Will you rely on him for his great strength? Will you leave your heavy work to him?
 12.  Can you trust him to bring in your grain and gather it to your threshing floor?
 13.  "The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully, but they cannot compare with the pinions and feathers of the stork.
 14.  She lays her eggs on the ground and lets them warm in the sand,
 15.  unmindful that a foot may crush them, that some wild animal may trample them.
 16.  She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers; she cares not that her labor was in vain,
 17.  for God did not endow her with wisdom or give her a share of good sense.
 18.  Yet when she spreads her feathers to run, she laughs at horse and rider.
 19.  "Do you give the horse his strength or clothe his neck with a flowing mane?
 20.  Do you make him leap like a locust, striking terror with his proud snorting?
 21.  He paws fiercely, rejoicing in his strength, and charges into the fray.
 22.  He laughs at fear, afraid of nothing; he does not shy away from the sword.
 23.  The quiver rattles against his side, along with the flashing spear and lance.
 24.  In frenzied excitement he eats up the ground; he cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
 25.  At the blast of the trumpet he snorts, `Aha!' He catches the scent of battle from afar, the shout of commanders and the battle cry.
 26.  "Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom and spread his wings toward the south?
 27.  Does the eagle soar at your command and build his nest on high?
 28.  He dwells on a cliff and stays there at night; a rocky crag is his stronghold.
 29.  From there he seeks out his food; his eyes detect it from afar.
 30.  His young ones feast on blood, and where the slain are, there is he."
Job 40
 1.  The LORD said to Job:
 2.  "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!"
 3.  Then Job answered the LORD:
 4.  "I am unworthy--how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth.
 5.  I spoke once, but I have no answer-- twice, but I will say no more."
 6.  Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:
 7.  "Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
 8.  "Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
 9.  Do you have an arm like God's, and can your voice thunder like his?
 10.  Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor, and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
 11.  Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and bring him low,
 12.  look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand.
 13.  Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave.
 14.  Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you.
 15.  "Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox.
 16.  What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly!
 17.  His tail  sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.
 18.  His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. 
 19.  He ranks first among the works of God, yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.
 20.  The hills bring him their produce, and all the wild animals play nearby.
 21.  Under the lotus plants he lies, hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
 22.  The lotuses conceal him in their shadow; the poplars by the stream surround him.
 23.  When the river rages, he is not alarmed; he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth.
 24.  Can anyone capture him by the eyes, or trap him and pierce his nose?
Job 41
 1.  "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?
 2.  Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook?
 3.  Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words?
 4.  Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life?
 5.  Can you make a pet of him like a bird or put him on a leash for your girls?
 6.  Will traders barter for him? Will they divide him up among the merchants?
 7.  Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears?
 8.  If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
 9.  Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering.
 10.  No one is fierce enough to rouse him. Who then is able to stand against me?
 11.  Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me.
 12.  "I will not fail to speak of his limbs, his strength and his graceful form.
 13.  Who can strip off his outer coat? Who would approach him with a bridle?
 14.  Who dares open the doors of his mouth, ringed about with his fearsome teeth?
 15.  His back has rows of shields tightly sealed together;
 16.  each is so close to the next that no air can pass between.
 17.  They are joined fast to one another; they cling together and cannot be parted.
 18.  His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn.
 19.  Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. 
 20.  Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.
 21.  His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth.
 22.  Strength resides in his neck; dismay goes before him.
 23.  The folds of his flesh are tightly joined; they are firm and immovable.
 24.  His chest is hard as rock, hard as a lower millstone.
 25.  When he rises up, the mighty are terrified; they retreat before his thrashing.
 26.  The sword that reaches him has no effect, nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
 27.  Iron he treats like straw and bronze like rotten wood.
 28.  Arrows do not make him flee; slingstones are like chaff to him.
 29.  A club seems to him but a piece of straw; he laughs at the rattling of the lance.
 30.  His undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
 31.  He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
 32.  Behind him he leaves a glistening wake; one would think the deep had white hair.
 33.  Nothing on earth is his equal-- a creature without fear.
 34.  He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud."
 
 
 
 

282 posted on 06/07/2005 2:46:13 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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