Librarian's brush with FBI shapes her view of the USA Patriot Act

USAToday ^ | Wed May 18, 6:25 AM ET | By Joan Airoldi

[Redcitizen]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20050518/cm_usatoday/librariansbrushwithfbishapesherviewoftheusapatriotact

Gannett allows headline and URL only.

[Fledermaus]

You can't call them towelheads, that's derogatory. They wear sheets and not towels so you have to call them sheetheads! ;-)

[rattrap]

What "freedoms" have we given up as a result of the Patriot Act? What can't you do now that you could do on Sept. 10, 2001?

Buy a book without worrying that the FBI might go to a secret court to find out what books I'm buying.

Exactly.

[Fledermaus]

They do. One of the biggest myths of the Patriot Act is that they don't need court orders. They do. The act only gives the SAME TOOLS to fighting terrorism as the Feds already have for organized crime or drugs.

[rattrap]

So just because he's of middle-eastern descent and paid cash (which, I'm pretty sure, is still within the bounds of the law) for something Americans do every day (Start lessons for a PPL) he should have some secret investigation into his background?

[rattrap]

It is not easy, necessary, or safe to carry around large sums of cash to conduct routine business transactions, and to do so should arouse suspicion.

Here, let me help you with that.

It is not easy, necessary, or safe well within our rights to carry around large sums of cash to conduct routine business transactions, and to do so should not arouse suspicion.

[Steve_Seattle]

"Buy a book without worrying that the FBI might go to a secret court to find out what books I'm buying."

Is that the best you can do? Every year billions of books are purchased from stores or checked out from libraries by tens of millions of people. Do you seriously think the FBI has the time, resources , or interest in monitoring the book purchases of the average citizen? They barely have the resources or inclination to follow through on actual tips they receive from the public or other law enforcement agencies (as was made clear in the post-9/11 investigations). This was a freak case involving a tip based on an unusual notation written in a book. It had nothing to do with random government monitoring of book usage or book purchases. I read somewhere that in the first 16 months after the Patriot Act was passed, not one single library account was subpoenaed.

[NavVet]

Wrong. The Patriot Act doesn't violate the Constitution, or perhaps you're just smarter than the 99 or 100 senators that voted for it, and you're smarter than any of the judges that have upheld it.

When you ask any opponent of the Patriot act to specifically point to the alleged constitutional violation, they normally just mumble and go away. But if you have an argument to make, let's hear it.

[RobRoy]

If a copy of "Little Women" was discovered to have the same statement in it, I assume there would still be a reason to find out who wrote that. It would be even more prudent to find out who wrote it if in the book it was found in.

These librarians are choosing the wrong battle here.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

Is that the best you can do? Every year billions of books are purchased from stores or checked out from libraries by tens of millions of people. Do you seriously think the FBI has the time, resources , or interest in monitoring the book purchases of the average citizen? They barely have the resources or inclination to follow through on actual tips they receive from the public or other law enforcement agencies (as was made clear in the post-9/11 investigations). This was a freak case involving a tip based on an unusual notation written in a book. It had nothing to do with random government monitoring of book usage or book purchases. I read somewhere that in the first 16 months after the Patriot Act was passed, not one single library account was subpoenaed.

Of course, if it was done in a secret court, we wouldn't necessarily know about it, nu?

True enough that the odds are against any one given individual having their book buying/borrowing habits monitored. By the same token, the odds are against any single person being falsely arrested -- but it does happen and we worry about it.

However, I disagree that they can't check out average citizens easily. They could at least ask for a subpoena an entire database in order to compile a list of who bought certain books they are concerned about. They might not get the subpoena, but with secret courts, who know?

[Steve_Seattle]

"So just because he's of middle-eastern descent and paid cash (which, I'm pretty sure, is still within the bounds of the law) for something Americans do every day (Start lessons for a PPL) he should have some secret investigation into his background?"

Not necessarily, but perhaps if such a report were filed and the FBI checked its file of existing suspects, this person's name might show up. And perhaps as a result, thousands of lives might be saved. And if the FBI received such a report, failed to investigate, and the person later turned out to be a terrorist, do you think the press and many others (possibly even yourself) would go on and on about what morons the FBI were, how they didn't "connect the dots"? And I don't recall saying anyone should be arrested for using cash; but it is a known fact in law enforcement that many illegal activities are concealed through cash transactions, and the use of large sums of cash is very often a red flag that something illegal is going on. I don't know if it was you or someone else who said that it would only be proper to investigate my hypothetical student pilot if he asked for something unusual like not learning how to land. Well, that's not illegal either.

[rattrap]

Whether they've used it or not is not the point, the point is the ability to use it is there.

[billbears]

Can there be any clearer evidence that liberals are anti-American faux conservatives are willing to hand over any semblance of freedom for a false feeling of 'safety'?

I don't care what side of the aisle this lady votes on. It's just a good thing to see we still have a few patriots left in this nation of states, than a bunch of blind leading the blind, willing to take the government's word on everything

It was a quote from 1998 according to the article. I don't know about you, but I've put notes in the margin on books before. Most everyone has. This situation is a very good argument for returning to private libraries

[petercooper]

Well, let me tell you something, funny boy. Y'know that little stamp,

the one that says "New York Public Library"? Well that may not mean

anything to you, but that means a lot to me. One whole hell of a lot.

Sure, go ahead, laugh if you want to. I've seen your type before:

Flashy, making the scene, flaunting convention. Yeah, I know what you're

thinking. What's this guy making such a big stink about old library

books? Well, let me give you a hint, junior. Maybe we can live without

libraries, people like you and me. Maybe. Sure, we're too old to change

the world, but what about that kid, sitting down, opening a book, right

now, in a branch at the local library and finding drawings of pee-pees

and wee-wees on the Cat in the Hat and the Five Chinese Brothers?

Doesn't HE deserve better? Look. If you think this is about overdue

fines and missing books, you'd better think again. This is about that

kid's right to read a book without getting his mind warped! Or: maybe

that turns you on, Seinfeld; maybe that's how y'get your kicks. You and

your good-time buddies. Well I got a flash for ya, joy-boy: Party time

is over. Y'got seven days, Seinfeld. That is one week!

[Steve_Seattle]

"secret courts"

These subpeonas are obtained in regular courts from regular judges, and few if any judges have a cavalier attitude about letting law enforcement go on fishing expeditions.

[Steve_Seattle]

You've either got a photographic memory or found a site with Seinfeld scripts. lol

[rattrap]

"Can'tStandYaaa, Can'tStandYaaa"

A classic episode.

[Steve_Seattle]

I think in that episode Kramer says something like, "The Dewey Decimal System is the biggest fraud once one-hour Martinizing."

[NavVet]

Isn't that what Mohammad Atta said.

It is funny that no one has a problem when any of these provisions that were in effect under various drug kingpin legislation for twenty-plus years, but extend the law to cover terrorist and all of a sudden folks are running around wrapping their heads in aluminum foil and complaining about the black helicopters.

[Steve_Seattle]

In the DVD commentary on that episode, the writer says his one problem with the show was the bad wig they got for George during the high school flashbacks. He wanted something that looked realistic, whereas the one they used was an obvious fake.

[jwh_Denver]

"I don't want to have to explain away Judy Garland's greatest hits.)"

Might get iffy if you have "Elvis Presley's Greatest Hits".