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To: rattrap
"Buy a book without worrying that the FBI might go to a secret court to find out what books I'm buying."

Is that the best you can do? Every year billions of books are purchased from stores or checked out from libraries by tens of millions of people. Do you seriously think the FBI has the time, resources , or interest in monitoring the book purchases of the average citizen? They barely have the resources or inclination to follow through on actual tips they receive from the public or other law enforcement agencies (as was made clear in the post-9/11 investigations). This was a freak case involving a tip based on an unusual notation written in a book. It had nothing to do with random government monitoring of book usage or book purchases. I read somewhere that in the first 16 months after the Patriot Act was passed, not one single library account was subpoenaed.
106 posted on 05/18/2005 1:12:26 PM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: Steve_Seattle
Is that the best you can do? Every year billions of books are purchased from stores or checked out from libraries by tens of millions of people. Do you seriously think the FBI has the time, resources , or interest in monitoring the book purchases of the average citizen? They barely have the resources or inclination to follow through on actual tips they receive from the public or other law enforcement agencies (as was made clear in the post-9/11 investigations). This was a freak case involving a tip based on an unusual notation written in a book. It had nothing to do with random government monitoring of book usage or book purchases. I read somewhere that in the first 16 months after the Patriot Act was passed, not one single library account was subpoenaed.

Of course, if it was done in a secret court, we wouldn't necessarily know about it, nu?

True enough that the odds are against any one given individual having their book buying/borrowing habits monitored. By the same token, the odds are against any single person being falsely arrested -- but it does happen and we worry about it.

However, I disagree that they can't check out average citizens easily. They could at least ask for a subpoena an entire database in order to compile a list of who bought certain books they are concerned about. They might not get the subpoena, but with secret courts, who know?

109 posted on 05/18/2005 1:20:29 PM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian (Shake Hands with the Serpent: Poetry by Charles Lipsig aka Celtjew http://books.lulu.com/lipsig)
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To: Steve_Seattle

Whether they've used it or not is not the point, the point is the ability to use it is there.


111 posted on 05/18/2005 1:21:35 PM PDT by rattrap
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To: Steve_Seattle
"Do you seriously think the FBI has the time, resources , or interest in monitoring the book purchases of the average citizen?"

This is the reason some people never care when their government looks to start doing something that's illegal or unconstitutional: they don't think it affects them. Well, you're probably right that it doesn't affect you yet. Would you care if the government put together a massive computer system and integrated it with the computer systems of every major bookseller and library in the country by law so it could monitor everyone's book purchases and library checkouts? Probably not. Would you care if the government integrated that tracking system with every supermarket, movie rental store, convenience store, gas station, car dealer, computer shop, ISP, contractor, and gun seller in the country? Probably not because you don't believe you're doing anything wrong.

Let me ask you, what exactly was wrong with the society depicted in George Orwell's book '1984'? Was there anything wrong with it at all? Or was the only flaw in the society the lack of control over the proles?

"I read somewhere that in the first 16 months after the Patriot Act was passed, not one single library account was subpoenaed."

So it's ok to have illegal powers so long as you don't use them for a while after they're given to you? How about if we give the FBI the power to arrest and hold indefinitely anyone it thinks might be a threat to the country (a power apparently reserved to the President, according to the current administration, though I fail to see where that is in the Constitution either)? How long would the FBI need to hold off on random and indefinite, unchallengable arrests before it'd be ok for them to come bust down some doors of anyone it thinks might pose a problem? Let's see - how about if they hold off about 3 years? That might just put them on target to start the arrests during President Hillary's reign. You want them to have that power then? Do you want the President to have that power then?

Power always corrupts. Absolute power always corrupts absolutely.
167 posted on 05/19/2005 7:30:18 AM PDT by NJ_gent (Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.)
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