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SUDDENLY, ARMOR AMOUR - (reports of "the tank is dead" are "greatly exaggerated"!)
WASHINGTON TIMES.COM ^ | MAY 13, 2005 | AUSTIN BAY

Posted on 05/13/2005 3:39:21 PM PDT by CHARLITE

Like Mark Twain's death, the demise of the tank has been "greatly exaggerated." A weekend conversation with my World War II and Korea vet father spurs this column. Dad had seen a short video I shot in Iraq that featured my staff section racing down Baghdad's "Route Irish" in an unarmored SUV. Dad asked about the handling characteristics of SUVs and Humvees with "add-on" armor -- light vehicles that weren't designed to carry the extra weight. He then compared what I told him about steel plates and Kevlar panels to a Korean War "armor upgrade" to counter land mines: sandbags on a jeep's floorboard.

Army units began adding sand bags, Kevlar and steel plates to their vehicles long before last year's press and political debate over the Pentagon's failure to anticipate the need to "up-armor" Humvees and trucks. The hot-button controversy flared in a bitterly partisan political year. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld actually gave a reasonable answer when he said an administration fights with the military it has. Critics smacked Mr. Rumsfeld for "insensitivity" and excuse-mongering to cover his own lack of foresight. The fact is, in war surprise is a certainty and winning requires adaptation and flexibility. Troops are often ahead of the generals. After D-Day, tenacious German resistance in Normandy's hedgerows surprised Allied forces and frustrated the brass' invasion timetable. An American sergeant jury-rigged a "cutting plow" that allowed U.S. tanks to bust through. There are more fertile fields for critics of Mr. Rumsfeld and his Pentagon Whiz Kids' lack of foresight.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: american; armor; armored; donaldrumsfeld; hardware; humvees; iraq; korea; military; miltech; modernization; ofdefense; pentagon; reorganizing; secretary; tanks; upgrades; vehicles; wwii
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1 posted on 05/13/2005 3:39:24 PM PDT by CHARLITE
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To: CHARLITE

I think the "death of the tank" can be applied to enemy tanks though. Between a JSTAR/AMSTE system and a single
B-52 you can take out 160 moving tanks.


2 posted on 05/13/2005 3:58:42 PM PDT by ProudVet77 (Warning: Frequent sarcastic posts)
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To: CHARLITE
They were saying this years ago when I was a tanker. One of the reason was because of air power and imaging. The envisioned battles fought on the plains of Europe fueled this. It was hard sitting in the hatch of my M60A3 at Knox watching Apaches and Warthawgs chew up targets down range to not think they may be right.

The situation has changed. This war is not the same as the last. Tactics change and adapt. Usually the best lessons are learned first on the battlefield and taught after its won. I cant remember any war, if you read enough about it, that the troops didn't need this or more of that. The problem is that the almost everyone in the media hasn't a clue as to how a war is fought, let alone won. But yet they have no problem telling us about "quagmires" and such.

A high ranking German general said something to the effect that the United States Armed Forces were the hardest to fight because we were the first to throw "the manual" out the window and had no problem doing it.

Its called being able to adapt and overcome with what you have until something new comes along. Its military 101.
3 posted on 05/13/2005 4:41:36 PM PDT by baystaterebel (F/8 and be there!)
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To: ProudVet77

I just hope someone does not get the idea of removing our Abram main tank from the equation. Surely it will come in handy in any 21 century engagement. There is nothing more intimidating then a large fairly fast tank with a modern 120 mm gun turret swinging around and seeing the hole at the end of the barrel. I am sure those glorious proud desert warriors in Fallujah did not like to see and hear our tanks running through the buildings they where racing to in order to seek safety.


4 posted on 05/13/2005 4:42:12 PM PDT by Marine_Uncle
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To: ProudVet77

Tanks are very useful against the kinds of lightly armed infantry we face in our current wars, but without the total air superiority that the US has had in all of our recent conflicts our tanks are just as likely to succumb as our enemies have. The tank is the ultimate land weapon but it is by no means dominant or even long lived in a three dimensional battlesplace.


5 posted on 05/13/2005 4:46:03 PM PDT by azcap
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To: baystaterebel
we were the first to throw "the manual" out the window

You had a manual?

6 posted on 05/13/2005 4:48:51 PM PDT by RightWhale (These problems would not exist if we had had a moon base all along)
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To: CHARLITE

It's hard to beat the combined effects of mass, speed, firepower and shock effect of a 69 ton M1A2 Abrams tank- Just ask any of the Iraqi survivors of OIF who had to stare one down. Any stand alone system can be defeated. It's how you employ it in concert with the total force that allows the best bang for the buck and the highest probability of survival.


7 posted on 05/13/2005 4:55:57 PM PDT by TADSLOS (Right Wing Infidel since 1954)
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To: baystaterebel
"The problem is that the almost everyone in the media hasn't a clue as to how a war is fought, let alone won. But yet they have no problem telling us about "quagmires" and such."

Brilliant comment, baystaterrebel. You put things so simply and clearly, which is why the comments are outstanding.

Thanks so much. You're quite right in all that you say.

Char :)

8 posted on 05/13/2005 5:00:42 PM PDT by CHARLITE (Not gonna be happy until the Hillster is sent packing.)
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To: Marine_Uncle; azcap
The Abrams is here to stay. Although it's mission may be changed as SOFs with lasers can direct bombs from 30K feet. But the tank is still king of the battlefield. Oddly, even more important in urban settings now.
In no way want to diminish the value of the Abrams. I was personally annoyed with him Rumsfeld when he at first postured that a "lighter" army was better. Fallujah proved him wrong, and I'm confident he has learned.
9 posted on 05/13/2005 5:04:53 PM PDT by ProudVet77 (Warning: Frequent sarcastic posts)
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To: CHARLITE
Tanks will have their place in warfare for a long time.

No weapon stands alone. No single weapon is good at everything. It takes aircraft, tanks, troops, intel all working together.

A weapons smorgasbord...
10 posted on 05/13/2005 5:07:13 PM PDT by ryan71 (Speak softly and carry a BIG STICK)
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To: TADSLOS

We will always have a need for armor because we will always have enemies like today's somewhere in the world. What I wonder about is if we had to face a first rate enemy... oh I don't who could come to mind but say...CHINA. How would our current structure and doctrine handle the attrition of armor. It seems that our current force needs every tank it has and has little room for the kind of attrition we saw in WWII or planned for against the Warsaw Pact. If we faced a enemy with some degree of air power and significant numbers of anti-tank weapons could we sustain combat with the losses we would surely take?


11 posted on 05/13/2005 5:08:40 PM PDT by azcap
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To: ProudVet77

"I was personally annoyed with him Rumsfeld when he at first postured that a "lighter" army was better."

I was to. Not just saying it. Surely enough Army and Marine brass will not let this main battle tank in any way go by the wayside. Any conflict world wide that needs our ground troops to come in has to know the heavies are there when needed. How right you are about Fallujah. As well as hundred of others SASO operations they have participated in.


12 posted on 05/13/2005 5:17:26 PM PDT by Marine_Uncle
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To: CHARLITE
Tanks might survive if we keep Generals like Patton out of the procurement process. The WWII Sherman Tank was a disaster on treads.
13 posted on 05/13/2005 5:18:50 PM PDT by Jeff Gordon (Recall Barbara Boxer)
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To: ryan71
"No weapon stands alone. No single weapon is good at everything. It takes aircraft, tanks, troops, intel all working together.

A weapons smorgasbord..."

We're hearing a lot lately about robots. They too have their limits, just as the unmanned drone aircraft do. New technological additions to the arsenal have been made throughout the history of warfare, but I can't see how the tank (which replaced the horse) will ever become obsolete. We'll just have more sophisticated tanks.

....but then, that's the opinion of a female civilian. What do I know, after all? . . . just using a little logic.

Char :)

14 posted on 05/13/2005 5:27:38 PM PDT by CHARLITE (Not gonna be happy until the Hillster is sent packing.)
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To: baystaterebel

"The US Army is very effective in war, because war is chaos, and the US Army practices chaos on a daily basis."
Field Marshall Runstadt.

"Operations against the US Army is very difficult because their officers do not know, and do not follow their doctrine."


15 posted on 05/13/2005 5:30:17 PM PDT by Donald Meaker
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To: CHARLITE
Don't sell yourself short, Charlite.

It's good to have ideas from "outside the box".

Like the fellow earlier commented about the German's respect for American troop's ability think beyond the book of procedures, to adapt and overcome.

It's very American...
16 posted on 05/13/2005 5:34:12 PM PDT by ryan71 (Speak softly and carry a BIG STICK)
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To: Jeff Gordon

The Sherman was actually effective if used properly. It was designed in 1942 when German tanks were armed with short barreled 75s and had 2 inches of armor. It was designed to take either of the large engines available, which caused its high profile. The vulnerability to fire was caused, not by its high octane gas, but rather by its ammunition ready rack. Changes encased the ready rack ammunition in radiator fluid, and stopped that.

Advantages of the Sherman: It had a power traverse, so that at short range it could fire first. If you went straight at the enemy you would die. If you played cowboys and indians, and went fast, the enemy would have to react to you, and then the Sherman won.

Doctrine was to use tank destroyers with lighter armor, higher mobility and larger caliber guns against enemy tanks, and commit tanks against the enemy rear areas. When used that way the US won.

That was part of the reason why the 101st Airborne was able to hold at Bastone. The 7th Armored Divison tanks had been destroyed, but their tank destroyers were still in Bastone.


17 posted on 05/13/2005 5:40:28 PM PDT by Donald Meaker
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To: Donald Meaker
Thanks Donald. That was what I was referring to. I just couldn't remember the exact words.
18 posted on 05/13/2005 5:42:00 PM PDT by baystaterebel (F/8 and be there!)
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To: ryan71
Thank you for such chivalry! I often post articles which I feel will generate a lively discussion on threads, but about which I, personally, have no expertise. If I only posted things that interest me, I would bore myself!

Char :)

19 posted on 05/13/2005 5:44:47 PM PDT by CHARLITE (Not gonna be happy until the Hillster is sent packing.)
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To: Marine_Uncle

The desert storm army took six months to move into position, when the Arabian peninsula has the best ports in the world. Before that, the 82nd Airborne were in place as speedbumps.

Rummy quite rightly thought there should be something heavier than the 82nd that could move faster than the 1st Armored in a strategic sense.

Part of the answer is lighter equipment that can use the large numbers of C-130s rather than depending on the few C-17s and C-5s. Part of the answer is prepositioned ships, but that puts our limited inventory of heavy armor out where enemy operations can destroy it. A logistical nose if you will.

Armor is great, if you have it, no doubt. If you can't get it for a while, then something lighter than an M-1 but easier to move could be helpful.


20 posted on 05/13/2005 5:47:29 PM PDT by Donald Meaker
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