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Scientists in the Kansas intelligent design hearings make their case public
AP ^ | 5/9/05 | John Hanna

Posted on 05/09/2005 11:35:25 PM PDT by Crackingham

While Kansas State Board of Education members spent three days soaking up from critics of evolution about how the theory should be taught in public schools, many scientists refused to participate in the board's public hearings. But evolution's defenders were hardly silent last week, nor are they likely to be Thursday, when the hearings are set to conclude. They have offered public rebuttals after each day's testimony. Their tactics led the intelligent design advocates -- hoping to expose Kansas students to more criticism of evolution -- to accuse them of ducking the debate over the theory. But Kansas scientists who defend evolution said the hearings were rigged against the theory. They also said they don't see the need to cram their arguments into a few days of testimony, like out-of-state witnesses called by intelligent design advocates.

"They're in, they do their schtick, and they're out," said Keith Miller, a Kansas State University geologist. "I'm going to be here, and I'm not going to be quiet. We'll have the rest of our lives to make our points."

The scientists' boycott, led by the American Association for the Advancement of Science and Kansas Citizens for Science, frustrated board members who viewed their hearings as an educational forum.

"I am profoundly disappointed that they've chosen to present their case in the shadows," said board member Connie Morris, of St. Francis. "I would have enjoyed hearing what they have to say in a professional, ethical manner."

Intelligent design advocates challenge evolutionary theory that natural chemical processes can create life, that all life on Earth had a common origin and that man and apes had a common ancestor. Intelligent design says some features of the natural world are best explained by an intelligent cause because they are well ordered and complex. The science groups' leaders said Morris and the other two members of the board subcommittee presiding at the hearings already have decided to support language backed by intelligent design advocates. All three are part of a conservative board majority receptive to criticism of evolution. The entire board plans to consider changes this summer in standards that determine how students will be tested statewide in science.

Alan Leshner, AAAS chief executive officer, dismissed the hearings as "political theater."

"There is no cause for debate, so why are they having them?" he said. "They're trying to imply that evolution is a controversial concept in science, and that's absolutely not true."


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; US: Kansas
KEYWORDS: crevolist; science
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To: RobRoy

It's only controversial on those sites, not in the halls of academe.


341 posted on 05/10/2005 11:48:50 AM PDT by Junior (“Even if you are one-in-a-million, there are still 6,000 others just like you.”)
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To: puroresu

"So occasionally you'll see a conservative precinct like Kansas or Cobb County, GA supporting a balanced view, in response to popular local opinion."


Only problem with that is that science itself doesn't conform to public opinion.

The earth was never flat...spontaneous generation was always a farce...the earth has always revolved around the sun...all 3 of these at one time flew in the face of "popular opinion".

Creationism will be seen as ridiculous as the flat earth theory or terra-centrism in time.


342 posted on 05/10/2005 11:48:59 AM PDT by Blzbba (Let them hate us as long as they fear us - Caligula)
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To: AmishDude

Are you really Amish, or just on drugs?


343 posted on 05/10/2005 11:50:04 AM PDT by js1138 (e unum pluribus)
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To: Junior

Which particular halls?


344 posted on 05/10/2005 11:51:24 AM PDT by RobRoy (Child support and maintenence (alimony) are what we used to call indentured slavery)
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To: Blzbba

####spontaneous generation was always a farce####


I agree, but it's interesting to hear an evolutionist say that.


345 posted on 05/10/2005 11:52:09 AM PDT by puroresu
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To: puroresu

"####spontaneous generation was always a farce#### "

"I agree, but it's interesting to hear an evolutionist say that."



How so? Really, "spontaneous generation" comes across (to me) like Christian Creationism. Here's a dead animal. {waves Creationist magic wand} Voila! Now we have flies being born! Therefore, flies must come from dead animals!


346 posted on 05/10/2005 11:54:51 AM PDT by Blzbba (Let them hate us as long as they fear us - Caligula)
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To: js1138
Are you really Amish, or just on drugs?

Ah, the wisdom expressed by the priest-scientists of biology.

347 posted on 05/10/2005 11:58:40 AM PDT by AmishDude (Join the AmishDude fan club: "Very well put, AD. As usual." -- Howlin; "ROFL!" -- Dan from Michigan)
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To: puroresu

Science is not a popularity contest. Just because a notion is widely held does not mean it is the correct one. There was a news article recently that polled a sample of the general public. More than half believed that if you had a gun with a curved barrel, and you fired a bullet down this curved barrel, that the projectile would contine to follow the arc traced by the curvature of the warped barrel once it has left the muzzle.

I'm as ardent of a supporter of homeschooling as you will find. I live in a homeschool friendly state and I intend to homeschool my children if possible. However, I'll teach them evolution when the subject matter is biology. Furthermore, private schools, both secular and parochial, teach evolution in biology class. The teaching of evolution is directly related to scientific relevancy, not government funding. Government is not obsessed with promoting evolution. Government is obsessed with promoting government. Teaching creationism in life sciences class in public schools does little to nothing to actually address the problems of the public school system. It is a *feel good* measure, but little more.


348 posted on 05/10/2005 12:00:34 PM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: AmishDude
Are you really Amish, or just on drugs?

Ah, the wisdom expressed by the priest-scientists of biology.

If you aren't on drugs then maybe you could repost #340, but in English this time...

349 posted on 05/10/2005 12:00:49 PM PDT by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: Thatcherite

I don't understand. Each word in there has a very precise meaning.


350 posted on 05/10/2005 12:03:51 PM PDT by AmishDude (Join the AmishDude fan club: "Very well put, AD. As usual." -- Howlin; "ROFL!" -- Dan from Michigan)
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To: mlc9852
Seems there's just a big fear of religion these days. Considering our religious heritage, I find it strange.

Oh, for a return to the days of Benjamin Franklin. One of the worlds greatest scientists of his day, but the same man that calmed the constitutional convention by pressing for daily prayers.

There was no fear of religion then, because by 1790 we had abandoned religious persecution. And no fear of science either, as it was looked on as an explanation of Gods creation, not a threat to it.

Perhaps it's been the pressure from outside of science to conform to a particular religious interpretation of life and the species that has created the mutual animosity? Nah.

351 posted on 05/10/2005 12:04:27 PM PDT by narby
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To: js1138

His profile claims he is not Amish, but rather descended from Mennonites.


352 posted on 05/10/2005 12:05:41 PM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: AmishDude
I don't understand. Each word in there has a very precise meaning.

True, each word has a precise meaning, and the grammar resembles English "as she is spoke", but as a whole #340 looks to me like the work of a bizarre random-sentence-generation program. I suspect that is what the poster who queried your mental state was getting at.

353 posted on 05/10/2005 12:06:24 PM PDT by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: AmishDude
Women, for example, are an example of a system in which the variables is[sic] not just infinite, but uncountable.

I'm sure this is true, whatever it says, but the expression of your idea is rather poor. What, for exsample, is the logical difference between infinite and uncountable?

When you can generalize beyond the specific eccentricities of the specific problem on which you are working, you can begin to understand what is happening.

I suppose this is, in some way or another, not technically false, but what does it mean?

354 posted on 05/10/2005 12:06:43 PM PDT by js1138 (e unum pluribus)
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To: exDemMom
Actually the reverse of your post is true. It is you that are excluding information by your prejudice. St. Augustine walked along the beach and saw a little boy scooping up the ocean in a sea shell. He compared this to our ability to understand the universe in it's totality. All we have is a sea shell's worth.
Also, there is a little switch here in the argument I see on all these evolution pings. ID does not necessarily equal creationism. That is something put forward by the keepers of the evolution dogma in an effort to dismiss any challenge.
If you like, here is a simple scenario. Next Wednesday the Vulcans land because the last time they were here they left their DNA test tube by mistake and now the whole planet is overrun with life. Now, a little less silly, seeding life by purpose or accident by exploring species doesn't involve "God", or "god" as the atheists like to say. But could that explain the origin of complex species? No? What about the thought that bacteria survived on our missions to Mars and that they might survive there?
But let's go back, the only questions not being allowed to be asked are by evolutionists.

As for your final silly paragraph it shows only your lack of knowledge about religion. I would say I am a strong creationist and Catholic. Yet I do believe the world is round. I do believe in evolution (It is hard not to. I had a sheltie growing up, then a bassett hound, now an English Mastff. All three are examples of the evolution of a species. By intelligent design of course:). People that believe are not superstitious ignorant people. We just couple wisdom with knowledge. Did you know the person who discovered the big bang was a Jesuit priest? I just threw that in for grins. No, Heaven isn't around the rings of Saturn any more than hell is just below the mantle.
Read Chronic Losers posts on this thread. He has the most articulate analysis I have read on these threads. When I have more time I am going to print this off. His posts might help you. Finally, for all of you out of staters that think we all live on farms.....well, I do but that isn't the point, Johnson County in Eastern Kansas has roughly the same population as the entire state of Vermont. Just in one county! So there.
355 posted on 05/10/2005 12:07:06 PM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local communist or socialist party chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing.)
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To: narby

Who is pressuring scientists? (Other than the Bush administration to dump the global warming crap - lol)


356 posted on 05/10/2005 12:08:00 PM PDT by mlc9852
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To: js1138
What, for exsample, is the logical difference between infinite and uncountable?

AmishDude may correct me, but I think I remember that integers are infinite but countable, while irrational numbers are both infinite and uncountable. There is a difference.

357 posted on 05/10/2005 12:09:33 PM PDT by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Dimensio
[ hosepipe asserted -- without evidence -- that "nearly all" fossil fakes were found by "non-evo" scientists ]

Thanks for the ping.. deary..
Dimensio is correct, I had no proof... only an assertion..
Which I made.

Demenso can prove all "its" assertions by Evo dogma..
Which of course is all true.. and is no lie.. because "it" said it..
and seems to be an Evo fundamentalist...

Demenso has an aversion to lies.. and untruth..
You can tell that by the serious and paternalistic demeanor..
I like "hard heads" and Demonso could break things with "its"..
Who could hate being averse to lies and untruth.?...
I was playing in free Republics Semantic Gymnasium with "it"... and it was fun..

Of course, Evos work overtime to DISprove Evolution {the scientific principle}
But just not on THIS planet.. maybe "it" is from Melmac..
Goes ballistic when it gets its fur wet.. and gets very "Queegish" and trys to Bogard you..
Kind of FRENCH really..

358 posted on 05/10/2005 12:09:35 PM PDT by hosepipe (This Propaganda has been edited to include not a small amount of Hyperbole..)
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To: Thatcherite

This is correct.


359 posted on 05/10/2005 12:11:49 PM PDT by crail (Better lives have been lost on the gallows than have ever been enshrined in the halls of palaces.)
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To: IrishCatholic
But let's go back, the only questions not being allowed to be asked are by evolutionists.

Give me an example of a question that can be settled by observation or experimentation that any scientist is not allowed to ask.

360 posted on 05/10/2005 12:12:24 PM PDT by js1138 (e unum pluribus)
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