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Scientists in the Kansas intelligent design hearings make their case public
AP ^ | 5/9/05 | John Hanna

Posted on 05/09/2005 11:35:25 PM PDT by Crackingham

While Kansas State Board of Education members spent three days soaking up from critics of evolution about how the theory should be taught in public schools, many scientists refused to participate in the board's public hearings. But evolution's defenders were hardly silent last week, nor are they likely to be Thursday, when the hearings are set to conclude. They have offered public rebuttals after each day's testimony. Their tactics led the intelligent design advocates -- hoping to expose Kansas students to more criticism of evolution -- to accuse them of ducking the debate over the theory. But Kansas scientists who defend evolution said the hearings were rigged against the theory. They also said they don't see the need to cram their arguments into a few days of testimony, like out-of-state witnesses called by intelligent design advocates.

"They're in, they do their schtick, and they're out," said Keith Miller, a Kansas State University geologist. "I'm going to be here, and I'm not going to be quiet. We'll have the rest of our lives to make our points."

The scientists' boycott, led by the American Association for the Advancement of Science and Kansas Citizens for Science, frustrated board members who viewed their hearings as an educational forum.

"I am profoundly disappointed that they've chosen to present their case in the shadows," said board member Connie Morris, of St. Francis. "I would have enjoyed hearing what they have to say in a professional, ethical manner."

Intelligent design advocates challenge evolutionary theory that natural chemical processes can create life, that all life on Earth had a common origin and that man and apes had a common ancestor. Intelligent design says some features of the natural world are best explained by an intelligent cause because they are well ordered and complex. The science groups' leaders said Morris and the other two members of the board subcommittee presiding at the hearings already have decided to support language backed by intelligent design advocates. All three are part of a conservative board majority receptive to criticism of evolution. The entire board plans to consider changes this summer in standards that determine how students will be tested statewide in science.

Alan Leshner, AAAS chief executive officer, dismissed the hearings as "political theater."

"There is no cause for debate, so why are they having them?" he said. "They're trying to imply that evolution is a controversial concept in science, and that's absolutely not true."


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; US: Kansas
KEYWORDS: crevolist; science
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To: Thatcherite

I personally never heard of Anthony Flew before he decided he believed in God so it really doesn't matter to me what the man believes in. I was responding to another post about him. I in no way think that what Anthony Flew believes or does not believe about evolution changes anything. Others may - I don't.


261 posted on 05/10/2005 9:57:36 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852
I am a creationist liar like all the rest.

Yet again a dishonest claim that I have said or implied that all creationists are liars when I have neither said nor implied any such thing. And now you drop the whole Antony Flew issue. Apparently you are utterly incapable of accepting that there are a good number of people on the creationist front who are shameless liars.

No attempt to refute my claims about Matchett-PI, hosepipe or nmh. Just drop the subject and pretend that it never existed. Better dishonestly evade the point than admit that someone on the evolution camp was right about something, is that it?
262 posted on 05/10/2005 9:58:39 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: js1138

I was responding to your post at 201.


263 posted on 05/10/2005 9:59:40 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: daysailor
What makes you think I've mistaken fossils for chicken bones?

Projection of inadequacy?

264 posted on 05/10/2005 10:00:15 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: mlc9852
No - faith is belief in what someone else tells you

If you want to invent your own definitions, then you will win every argument -- in your own mind. But you will find that no one wants to converse with you.

265 posted on 05/10/2005 10:01:29 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: mlc9852
I personally never heard of Anthony Flew before he decided he believed in God so it really doesn't matter to me what the man believes in.

Neither had I heard of him before then, and neither, probably did 99.9% of Freepers. Yet the Freeper creationists seemed to believe suddenly that his views are tremendously important.

BIG NEWS, 85 yo guy who is a lifelong atheist wonders if there might be some kind of deity after all.

266 posted on 05/10/2005 10:04:54 AM PDT by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: mlc9852

Well, certain Freeper creationists anyway.


267 posted on 05/10/2005 10:07:37 AM PDT by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: mlc9852

I know you were posting to 201, but did you read it. Science cannot and does not attempt to contradict God.

It might, however, contradict what people say about God. In the long run, some people are going to have to change what they say about God.


268 posted on 05/10/2005 10:09:41 AM PDT by js1138 (e unum pluribus)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

You evos have absolutely no sense of humor. Sorry. I'm sure you found a perfectly good fossil.


269 posted on 05/10/2005 10:10:50 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: js1138

I guess I should have said "contradicts the Bible".


270 posted on 05/10/2005 10:11:41 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: AmishDude
Then you clearly don't understand it. You're just hacking along to get the job done.

Sure. And certianly your prejudice on math challenged folks like me will come into play.

The guy in the office with the Phd in Math (and uses it), has his talents, and I have mine. I have far more "vision" than he does. But he certianly can generate algorithms that I can then take and do work he would never have had the creativity to concieve.

271 posted on 05/10/2005 10:11:48 AM PDT by narby
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To: donh

youre scared the 1500's are coming back too, huh. oooooo-okay....


272 posted on 05/10/2005 10:12:58 AM PDT by wallcrawlr (I post the story, then turn the discussion back over to the adults...)
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To: daysailor

You misunderstand my point. Some of what scientists assume about evolution is based on a small amount of physical evidence. Case in point -

DESCRIBER


Harrison & Walker,1975 vide Le Loeuff, Buffetaut, Mechin & Mechin-Salessy, 1992

TIME


Cretaceous Late
Maastrichtian

CLASSIFICATION


Saurischia Theropoda Tetanurae Coelurosauria Maniraptora NOMINA DUBIA

DIET


Carnivore

FOSSILSITE


Sinpetru Beds, Judethean Hunedoara, Romania

FALL UNDER


ELOPTERYX nopscai

INFO

Elopteryx nopscai > Bradycneme draculae (Harrison & Walker,1975)

Le Leouff et al. 1992 showed that Bradycneme is a junior synonym of Elopteryx nopscai. However, Elopteryx is based on two proximal femora that cannot be compared to the distal tibiotarsus of Bradycneme.



...based on two proximal femora... Not that means it isn't correct - just that there often isn't a lot of evidence. This is just one example. It wouldn't make sense to try to look up every fossil from every supposed animal, now would it?

Anyway, I'm off to lunch now. Have a nice afternoon.


273 posted on 05/10/2005 10:16:15 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: Thoro
The sheer improbability of it suggests divine intervention. For 2-3 billion years of random molecule interaction to firmly arrive at humanity is a statistic impossibility. If a divine plan isn't being followed there, then that was a really foolish gamble on God's part. There is more than enough ample room for God and evolution to co-exist.

The way I look at it, God created "chance" itself. If the weather is "scattered showers", did God make it rain in one place, but not the other? Or was it "chance" that decided it?

You can answer that question just about any way you like. But the bottom line is that Gods creation is where the evidence for evolution was derived. Evolution is fact, whether the creationists believe it or not.

274 posted on 05/10/2005 10:17:39 AM PDT by narby
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To: doc30
Well, at least I now understand your view a little more.

Thanks for responding. I dont agree with any of it.

your mind is already made up and no amount of discussion, evidence or facts will change your faith.

I find it odd that you wouldnt think of yourself in the samy way...as if only certain people are so "closed-minded". ha. I wont see you in heaven but maybe we can work on other similar goals down on earth.Later...

275 posted on 05/10/2005 10:18:07 AM PDT by wallcrawlr (I post the story, then turn the discussion back over to the adults...)
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To: mlc9852

Or contradicts what people say about the Bible. I happen to believe the Bible can be true without being a science textbook, or even a literal history book.


276 posted on 05/10/2005 10:18:32 AM PDT by js1138 (e unum pluribus)
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To: wallcrawlr
I wont see you in heaven ...

Reminds me of the Oracle's prediction -- If you invade Persia, a great kingdom will be destroyed.

277 posted on 05/10/2005 10:20:05 AM PDT by js1138 (e unum pluribus)
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To: mlc9852
Along with the homosexual agenda and abortion on demand. Now I just need to decide which side I want to be on.

Remember what I said about throwing rocks from glass houses? Trying to make the "other side" look bad by pointing out a few excesses can easly be carried over to Christianity where you find the Jim Joneses and faith healers with radios in their ears so they can "divine" details of the members of the audience.

278 posted on 05/10/2005 10:20:18 AM PDT by narby
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To: mlc9852

I've got a great sense of humor. To prove it I'll ask again:

In your opinion, how many fossils has science led us to believe exist? How much are they exaggerating?

You must have some kind of numbers on this. Of course, if you want to say that your accusation of mass fraud on the part of paleontologists is simply your *opinion* and that you have no facts to back it up, well, I'll understand.

But it would be really cool if you could prove how many fossils there really are, compared to how many scientists *say* there are.

I really hope you can "dig up" those numbers...


279 posted on 05/10/2005 10:21:23 AM PDT by daysailor (Sorry, I'm new here)
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To: daysailor
I didn't accuse anyone of "mass fraud" as you call it. You missed my point. Re-read and if you still don't understand, then it is my fault for being obtuse. Sorry.
280 posted on 05/10/2005 10:27:09 AM PDT by mlc9852
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