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Scientists in the Kansas intelligent design hearings make their case public
AP ^ | 5/9/05 | John Hanna

Posted on 05/09/2005 11:35:25 PM PDT by Crackingham

While Kansas State Board of Education members spent three days soaking up from critics of evolution about how the theory should be taught in public schools, many scientists refused to participate in the board's public hearings. But evolution's defenders were hardly silent last week, nor are they likely to be Thursday, when the hearings are set to conclude. They have offered public rebuttals after each day's testimony. Their tactics led the intelligent design advocates -- hoping to expose Kansas students to more criticism of evolution -- to accuse them of ducking the debate over the theory. But Kansas scientists who defend evolution said the hearings were rigged against the theory. They also said they don't see the need to cram their arguments into a few days of testimony, like out-of-state witnesses called by intelligent design advocates.

"They're in, they do their schtick, and they're out," said Keith Miller, a Kansas State University geologist. "I'm going to be here, and I'm not going to be quiet. We'll have the rest of our lives to make our points."

The scientists' boycott, led by the American Association for the Advancement of Science and Kansas Citizens for Science, frustrated board members who viewed their hearings as an educational forum.

"I am profoundly disappointed that they've chosen to present their case in the shadows," said board member Connie Morris, of St. Francis. "I would have enjoyed hearing what they have to say in a professional, ethical manner."

Intelligent design advocates challenge evolutionary theory that natural chemical processes can create life, that all life on Earth had a common origin and that man and apes had a common ancestor. Intelligent design says some features of the natural world are best explained by an intelligent cause because they are well ordered and complex. The science groups' leaders said Morris and the other two members of the board subcommittee presiding at the hearings already have decided to support language backed by intelligent design advocates. All three are part of a conservative board majority receptive to criticism of evolution. The entire board plans to consider changes this summer in standards that determine how students will be tested statewide in science.

Alan Leshner, AAAS chief executive officer, dismissed the hearings as "political theater."

"There is no cause for debate, so why are they having them?" he said. "They're trying to imply that evolution is a controversial concept in science, and that's absolutely not true."


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; US: Kansas
KEYWORDS: crevolist; science
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To: Crackingham

Just what we need more unemployed pastors with
their doctorates in Intelligent Design.

:o)


101 posted on 05/10/2005 7:19:06 AM PDT by Tungenchek
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To: chronic_loser

Excellent points. Do you ever feel like you're swimming against the tide? I know I do.


102 posted on 05/10/2005 7:19:20 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: chronic_loser
So what are you going to replace evolution with?

Claiming that some "intellegence" created species at one time won't wash, because the fossil record refutes it.

Claiming that some "intellegence" created species over billions of years is irrational, because then that intellegence should still be here among us, and there is no evidence of this.

So what are you going to replace evolution with, once you've criticised it into oblivion?

103 posted on 05/10/2005 7:21:14 AM PDT by narby
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To: crail
Better than a "science" which is filled with ad hoc hackery and populated with "scientists" who go into the field because they can't handle calculus.
104 posted on 05/10/2005 7:21:51 AM PDT by AmishDude (Join the AmishDude fan club: "Very well put, AD. As usual." -- Howlin; "ROFL!" -- Dan from Michigan)
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To: chronic_loser

What limits would you then put on what can call itself science, and what is too big for science? Mine are that it can be addressed with the scientific method, that you can't appeal to miraculous events. Just out of interest sake, I'd like to know yours. For example, philisophical pondering of morality and meaning? I understand you don't like the current definition of scientific material, but what limits yours?


105 posted on 05/10/2005 7:23:23 AM PDT by crail (Better lives have been lost on the gallows than have ever been enshrined in the halls of palaces.)
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To: narby
"Science" has had the reputation for the last hundred years as being a bastion of logic. A collection of "truth finders". A culture willing to critically re-examine anything and throw it out if it was incorrect.>>>>>

and a bigger pile of horseshit has never existed. no one who has worked in a lab for 30 minutes really believes this. Science is, and always has been, done by men and women, who bring their virtues, their prejudices, their cranky ideas, their jealousies, their political leanings and their religious ideologies (or lack thereof) into the lab with them. The only more laughable proposition than this is the left's idea that if we just look hard enough we can find the philosopher-kings of Plato, vest them with political power, and coast into paradise.

A really great and readable tract on this is DOUBLE HELIX, by Watson (Watson and Crick). Read that and examine the political moves, the personal animosities, the hatreds and shifiting loyalties that are admitted. Then read Rosalind Franklin's account of Watson and Crick for a few that are not exactly showcased. Science is done by people, and will always be fraught with the foibles of the people that do it.
106 posted on 05/10/2005 7:23:29 AM PDT by chronic_loser
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To: narby
Okay - I promised myself I would not get into it with you today. However, just this one brief post then you will never hear from me again - lol. I believe, and will continue to believe until it has been proved beyond any doubt, that God created human beings as fully formed, functioning human beings. The fact that DNA is similar to that of other animals just tells me that we all have the same creator. If we are just advanced animals, then what is the point of anything in life? I know - that goes into philosophical arguments - not science. However, I'm not convinced they aren't intertwined. I'll leave it at that.

You have a good day, Narby.
107 posted on 05/10/2005 7:23:56 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: crail
Most of them didn't study something in direct contradiction to their theology.

Are you talking about biologists or climatologists?

108 posted on 05/10/2005 7:24:03 AM PDT by AmishDude (Join the AmishDude fan club: "Very well put, AD. As usual." -- Howlin; "ROFL!" -- Dan from Michigan)
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To: crail

You are absolutely right! Many of these things are beyond
the reach of "science".


109 posted on 05/10/2005 7:24:04 AM PDT by upcountryhorseman (An old fashioned conservative)
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To: doc30

My point is science and religion do have some things in common. People will look to "prove" what they already believe and discard what doesn't fit. And people will continue to argue about it as they have done throughout history.


110 posted on 05/10/2005 7:25:08 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: AmishDude

You can study all the calculus you want in biology. Lots of processes end up as non-linear and delay differential equations... very difficult calculus.


111 posted on 05/10/2005 7:25:19 AM PDT by crail (Better lives have been lost on the gallows than have ever been enshrined in the halls of palaces.)
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To: chronic_loser

Your confusing science with scientists. While scientists can be biased, angry, and political, their theories won't stand if they publish without the evidence. It's the group phenomenon of debate, experimentation and observation that weeds out the individual biases of scientists and teases out the gems.


112 posted on 05/10/2005 7:27:19 AM PDT by crail (Better lives have been lost on the gallows than have ever been enshrined in the halls of palaces.)
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To: chronic_loser
You misunderstand the issue.

No, I don't. You do. Your disgust with rationalism, materialism, whatever is unrelated to the preponderance of evidence for common descent, an old Earth, etc. Science has not been doing science wrong for the last 200 years. Get over it.

113 posted on 05/10/2005 7:27:49 AM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: crail
I just think a class in critical thinking would be valuable to students.

That would be the whole math department. You might want to give bio students a tour of the building. Or at least directions on how to get there.

114 posted on 05/10/2005 7:28:08 AM PDT by AmishDude (Join the AmishDude fan club: "Very well put, AD. As usual." -- Howlin; "ROFL!" -- Dan from Michigan)
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To: Gumlegs

I have a whole book of Sidney Harris cartoons. :-)

One of the ones that made me laugh loudest, was a guy was at a synthetic polymer plant exclaiming "AH HA" as he saw a sheep escaping. LMAO!


115 posted on 05/10/2005 7:29:09 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: crail
Exactly. A myth-busters class. I wish I had one now that you put it that way!!!

Try here.

Or here.

116 posted on 05/10/2005 7:29:38 AM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: chronic_loser
My objection to this whole sorry pile of dreck is that "rational" now means "rationalism" and thus the realm of the supernatural has become defined as "irrational."

I'm sure the astrologers of the world celebrate that you're taking up their supernatural cause. I think I'm a Sagittarius. Wonder what my future holds today?

You do realize that once the "supernatural" is defined as "rational". Then anything goes. Any faith. Any crackpot whacko with Koolaid and a tent in the jungle is now "rational".

You do realize that Christians are a small minority on this planet, don't you? By making the argument that the supernatural is rational, you're giving more aid to other faiths, than to Christians, merely because of the demographics.

I've heard the screams from DU that Bush and conservatives are attempting to start a theocracy. I've paid them no mind until now. But maybe they're not so far off after all.

117 posted on 05/10/2005 7:29:58 AM PDT by narby
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To: Gumlegs
We at Showtime Online express our apologies; however, these pages are intended for access only from within the United States.

Grrrr. Second link is good. Could I bother you for a short descriptive surf of the second?
118 posted on 05/10/2005 7:31:21 AM PDT by crail (Better lives have been lost on the gallows than have ever been enshrined in the halls of palaces.)
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To: js1138
Geology would be on the list if it were taught in high school, as would astronomy.

This is my whole problem this is taught in high schools, before anyone has any understanding of anything (oh and it's taught in Jr. High, too). Regardless of the scientific merit of evolution, it is taught as theology. Students must believe and swear fealty to the wise and knowledgeable biologists.

119 posted on 05/10/2005 7:32:31 AM PDT by AmishDude (Join the AmishDude fan club: "Very well put, AD. As usual." -- Howlin; "ROFL!" -- Dan from Michigan)
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To: narby
I've heard the screams from DU that Bush and conservatives are attempting to start a theocracy. I've paid them no mind until now. But maybe they're not so far off after all.

I still don't think that's what's going on, overall, despite the delusionally wishful thinking of the creationists. However, if it is, that bus can go over the cliff without me on it.

120 posted on 05/10/2005 7:34:41 AM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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