COURAGE OF THE SOVIET PEOPLE WAS THE MAJOR FORCE THAT DESTROYED NAZISM - PUTIN

RIA Novosti ^ | RIA Novosti

[Lessismore]

MOSCOW, May 7 (RIA Novosti) - The Soviet people not only defended the Motherland from the Nazi aggression, but also liberated 11 European countries during World War II, announced Russian President Vladimir Putin on Saturday during the opening ceremony of the memorial on the Poklonnaya Hill dedicated to the Victory in the Great Patriotic War.

"During fierce battles on the front that stretched from the Barents Sea to Caucasus, the Soviet Union broke the backbone of the German military machine. It was on the Eastern front where the Nazis suffered three-quarters of their losses," Putin said.

"Courage, resilience and unity of the multi-national people became the major force that destroyed Nazism," Putin stressed.

He said the world has never seen such an example of mass heroism, such a spread of partisan movement, such enthusiasm and effort of workers at the home front that provided the army with all necessary means to defeat the enemy.

"We will always remember and respect the feat of the generation of victors," the Russian President stated.

"They defended our right to live, to preserve our statehood and culture. They defended the future of our children. Their heroic deeds will always serve as a moral model for us," Putin said.

The Russian President concluded his speech with the words, "May the glory of those who perished for the freedom and independence of our Motherland live forever! We bow deeply to the veterans of the Great Patriotic War!"

The new memorial is a gigantic colonnade consisting of 15 bronze steles.

Ten of them represent the feats of Red Army soldiers and officers. Three are dedicated to courage, resilience and heroism of the Navy personnel. One of the steles is dedicated to fearless partisans and members of underground resistance, and the last one - to workers at the home front.

[FreedomCalls]

It wasn't because the Communists were better for the people of Europe than the Nazis.

The people of Europe who were under Nazi occupation certainly thought so. With the sole exception of the Croatians, every Nazi-occupied country in the East chose to fight the Nazis by allying with the communists. They had no other choice really, but given that particular choice, they all chose the communists rather than the Nazis.

Hell, even the French had a substantial post-war communist movement. It was only through the efforts of the CIA and others that the post-war communist movements in Turkey, Greece, and Italy were suppressed. There were no serious post-war Nazi movements (except in the Middle East where it's called "Ba'athism" or in Palestine where it's called "Hamas").

[Polybius]

But didn't General Snow and General Mud equally hamper military operations on the Russian side? The Russians were not immune to the effects of bad weather.

No, they were not immune but they were well prepared for it.

Hitler arrogantly expected the fighting to be over by winter and the German forces were horribly prepared for Russian winter operations.

When the full brunt of the Russian winter struck, the Germans had to resort to winter clothing collections from German civilians back in Germany, they had not developed fuels that worked effectively at very low temperatures, had troops that were not used to operating in such conditions and had over-stretched supply lines.

By contrast, the Russians had winter gear, winter fuels, much shorter supply lines and Siberian ski troops and cavalry units accustomed to such conditions that targeted supply depots behind German lines at a time when the Luftwaffe and German armor had been rendered ineffective by the winter.

The Germans lost 1 million men that first winter.

[inquest]

With the sole exception of the Croatians, every Nazi-occupied country in the East chose to fight the Nazis by allying with the communists.

And this is because of any difference they perceived between Nazism and Communism? No, it's because the Nazis attacked their countries first, and the Communists offered to fight them off. It was the reverse in Finland, where the USSR attacked first, and the locals aligned with the Nazis.

Hell, even the French had a substantial post-war communist movement. It was only through the efforts of the CIA and others that the post-war communist movements in Turkey, Greece, and Italy were suppressed.

Communism was certainly more successful than Nazism at subverting societies, because it appealed more to class jealousies. That sure as hell didn't mean that it treated its victims any more ethically.

[FreedomCalls]

It's you who's having trouble telling the difference between freedom and improved health.

And you are the holocaust denier who is claiming the liberation of the death camps was just "improving the health" of the inmates, nothing more.

[inquest]

#52 demonstrates the lie of that comment. Just admit that you can't make your point, instead of trying to nitpick your way out of your jam.

[Diplomat]

It wasn't the weather that caused the nazi defeat it was the T-34. Without it, the Russians end up half or totally conquered.

With regard to Russian bravery at Stalingrad; these poor kids that were ferried across the Volga were given the choice of dying by Russian bullets or German bullets. It was that simple. Heck, most didn't even get a weapon, they were told to take it off the dead who fall in front of them. I believe that movie about a German and Russian sniper gives a gripping potrayal of this reality as part of teh backdrop to their story.

I'd like to see Putin tell the truth about why the Russians were so brave, the murdering commissars. Obviously the notion that Russia liberated 11 countries is the continued denial by Russia at the extent of their own evil. And I will use the word evil, because that is what it was.

Although I am convinced the T-34 was the difference, I also believe that had the Russians been a good and noble people, instead of a strong and brave people, they wouldn't have suffered as much as they did and they certainly wouldn't have acted with an absolute reckless regard for life.

[FreedomCalls]

That sure as hell didn't mean that it treated its victims any more ethically.

Show me the extermination camps in post-war Eastern Europe. Show me the trainloads of Jews being sent to their death. Show me the children being experimented on like lab mice.

Why can't you admit that as evil as the communists were -- and they are one of the single greatest evils of the 20th Century, that the evil of the Nazi movement was worse? Had the Nazis spread as far as the communists and been in power as long as the communists, the sheer numbers of dead would have easily tipped in favor of the Nazis.

[elcid1970]

That would be fine, give the Russians their V-E Day, except that the KGB-man Putin is calling for the reconstituting of the USSR, and Stalin statues are sprouting up all across the Motherland. A large number of Russians believe the events of 1991 caught them off guard and unfair, and they are interested in payback.

[FreedomCalls]

Just admit that you can't make your point, instead of trying to nitpick your way out of your jam.

My point is well made: people under Nazi rule in Eastern Europe were worse off under Nazi occupation than under subsequent communist occupation, bad though it was. History is on my side.

Communists were evil and the occupation of Eastern Europe by the Soviet Army was a betrayal of all that we went to war for, but that doesn't make the Nazis better people than they were.

[inquest]

Show me the extermination camps in post-war Eastern Europe.

At #40, you agreed with the statement that Stalin perpetrated mass starvation in Eastern Europe as a means of maintaining control. The fact that this didn't happen in any specific "camps" is irrelevant. The numbers of those murdered speak for themselves. Communists murdered more than the Nazis did, and totally ravaged the lives of many more than that with their gulags and psihuskas and just plain ordinary oppression.

This is of course to say nothing of the spead of Communism that was made possible by sparing the USSR - to places like China where the Communists murdered more people than either Hitler or Stalin, probably more than both of them combined.

[Polybius]

If a prison guard saves the life of an inmate, that inmate is still an inmate. He hasn't been "liberated".

If you can't understand the difference between a temporary life in an extermination camp and life under the East German or Polish communist regimes, there's no use arguing with you. They are lightyears apart in the degree of oppression suffered by the people there.

One major difference between Nazi and Soviet concentration camps is that photos of the Nazi death camps (such as the ones you posted) were available for all the world to see in April 1945 but the estimated 12-20 million individuals that died in the Soviet Gulag system until Stalin's death in 1953 died as annonymously as the Nazis victims died prior to the arrival of Allied photographers at the German death camps.

On set of photos that did manage to come out were the photos of the Katyn Forrest Massacre where the Soviets massacred 11,000 Polish Army officers and then secretly buried their bodies in the Polish soil in 1940.

Whether or not a particular Pole would have been better off under Nazi or Soviet conquest depended on what social class that particular Pole belonged to and which social classes the Nazis and the Soviets wanted to exterminate.

[Citizen Tom Paine]

I respectfully submit that the reason the Soviet army defeated the German armies was Marshal of the Soviet Union Georgi Zhukov and the individual Soviet soldier.

Zhukov (together with Dwight Eisenhower) were the two best Generals in WWII (IMHO)

[kellynla]

Interesting perspective by Putin of the Russian victory in WWII.
I'll have to brush up on my Russian. I didn't know that the Russian synonym for "communism" is "liberation!" LOL

I think those 11 countries, whichever ones Putin is referring to that were under the thumb communism and the tens of millions of people who were slaughtered under Stalin's rule from 1924-53, might have a different opinion than Putin's. I think going from the "frying pan to the fire", might be a more accurate characterization.

I won't get into the Russian atrocities at this time and Patton's opinion of the Russian army.

[inquest]

My point is well made: people under Nazi rule in Eastern Europe were worse off under Nazi occupation than under subsequent communist occupation, bad though it was.

Your point was that the Soviets engaged in "liberation", and as I showed you, that is false. As for whether the people were better off, some definitely were, others not. I don't think the majority of Germans in the eastern part of the country were necessarily better off under Communists than Nazis. Economically they certainly weren't, and politically, I don't think the Nazi equivalent of the Stasi made the lives of most Germans anywhere near as miserable as the Stasi itself made them.

History is on my side.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you seriously trying to suggest that just because something actually happened, it's therefore a good thing?

[FreedomCalls]

Communists murdered more than the Nazis did

That's a specious argument because communists controlled more people than the Nazis. It's the same argument the lefties make when they say the Bush is worse than Castro because the US has more people in prison than Cuba does. It's the percentage that matters.

[rmichaelj]

I wouldn't say they were fighting for Stalin, just against the Nazis. (eg If you have two axe murderers in your house you kill the one who is currently holding the axe).

[FreedomCalls]

This is of course to say nothing of the spead of Communism that was made possible by sparing the USSR - to places like China where the Communists murdered more people than either Hitler or Stalin, probably more than both of them combined.

Isn't that because there are more people in China than in Germany or Russia?

Besides, this isn't about China. It's about whether the population of East Europe was better off under the post-war communists or under war-time Nazi rule.

Just a reminder, here's the statement that you are defending and I am attacking: "Too bad Stalin replaced Naziism with something just as bad."

[inquest]

Be sure and count more than just the population of Germany, because the Nazis occupied nearly all of Europe. And keep in mind further that there was a war on at the time when the Nazis did the lion's share of their murdering. That doesn't excuse it, but it's only common sense that this sort of thing would go up during wartime. Compare that to Stalin's deliberate mass starvations that were not war-related, but merely done for the purpose of exercising control over the people (to name only one aspect of his despotism).

[FreedomCalls]

I agree that the Katyn massacre was an evil act. But it was not an attempt to exterminate a whole people as if they were vermin as the Nazis attempted to do with the Jews. Or to enslave a whole people as they planned on doing to the Russians and Ukrainians. It was an evil act, but it was an act of war as it was limited to uniformed Polish officers, was it not? Did it include whole families? Was the end goal to kill all Poles? The Nazis end goal was to kill all Jews as the final solution to the "Jewish problem". The scales still tip toward the Nazis on my "evilometer".

Don't get me wrong. I am not condoning anything the communists did. I'm just saying the Nazis were worse.

[FreedomCalls]

Whether or not a particular Pole would have been better off under Nazi or Soviet conquest depended on what social class that particular Pole belonged to and which social classes the Nazis and the Soviets wanted to exterminate.

Could you substitue "Jew" for "Pole" in your defense of the Nazis? You can't as they wanted to exterminate all Jews, not just some of a particular social class. Left to their druthers, they would have even killed Albert Einstein who had to flee the country.