Posted on 05/06/2005 1:07:06 PM PDT by Caleb1411
I just read where Chinese priests are being subjected to "reprogramming" for not conforming to Chinese law regarding allegiance to the state.
the problem is an "absence of conscience"
and frankly some atheists have more "conscience" than those that profess to be "religious", but I digress....
Yes, and China has a "state-owned" version of the Church just to deal with such things! It wouldn't surprise me to see some Western countries quietly encouraging their own versions of the Catholic Church - that is, keeping the name and the practices, such as they are, but putting the law of the state above that of God and/or the Church. I suspect that's the church to which Kerry belongs...
before I go, I'd just like to thank you all for a very thought provoking yet civil discussion.....
it leaves me with much food for thought
Ruth Bader-Ginsburg doesn't agree with you about that idea.
BTW, the proposed law in Tennessee effectively defines as law the idea that pregnancy begins at implantation, not fertilization -- despite the fact that Roe v. Wade says that the question of when life begins is fundamentally a religious one. Do you know what authority the bill cites for that finding? The World Health Organization -- a UN agency.
Why should the views of one foreign organization (WHO) be enshrined in the laws of Tennessee, to the exclusion of those of another (the Vatican)? I think the UN is a far greater threat to the sovereignty and freedom of the US than the Vatican ever could be.
I've got to get back to work now, but this has been a great discussion, gentlemen (and/or ladies).
The oath is to uphold the law, not just to uphold the laws he thinks are OK.
Please describe this "law" you speak of. Actually you can't, except in that VERY broad and VERY general term. The law may be something properly enacted or not. "The law", nowadays, seems more and more to be what the guys with the guns and or the robes says it is. (I think you are perfectly well aware that you and I and others are, in fact, arguing at cross purposes).
I have nothing of quality to add to this excellent discussion thread...except the observation that THIS is just ONE of the things about FR that makes it so unique.
To those who argue that FR is going downhill...I offer up this thread as rebuttal.
Thats all I wanted to say...
I doubt you will agree, but both under the laws of our land and of my faith, when the Pope teaches the TRUTH in conformity to international law, his words DO matter. If the laws of my country violate the laws of GOD, they are nugatory and I wil, disobey them. Bet on it. The Church Militant has a new general and he is willing to lead. The secular humanists ought to be worried.
"My own goal is to be prepared for the testing of my faith, and to be worthy of the martyrs who have gone before."
I don't know how old you are but I'll bet anyway that you are going to get your shot.
I have long since accepted that will get my own. Evil does indeed rule the world. God would have it no other way (I believe).
>>Osama Bin Laden and other Islamists say most Muslims aren't real Muslims because they are not following the teachings of Mohammad or the Koran which turns out to be a good thing
for the world in respect to the teachings which encourage the killing of infidels, as in the rest of us<<
However, unlike Bin Laden, our Pope does not blow up people who do not follow Catholic Teachings.
Thank God, eleven of the twelve Apostles, as well as who knows how many Holy Martyrs for the faith did not share that view. Our human ideas of acting, based on the success / failure ratio is not how Christians are commanded to live our lives.
It may be that the best thing that Christians can do, when confronted with a situation like this, is to become as inept as possible; never complete any action that violates conscience, and force their termination.
The argument I have heard about the primacy of the oath taken is weak; unless ipso facto you cede all power to the state.
Thanks ... the redneck martyr, with a baby on my hip and a last quotation from P.J. O'Rourke :-).
I'm 38. I expect a general persecution of Christians in the United States in my lifetime.
I'm don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that Christians should not seek to have just laws passed, in spite of the opposition? Or are you saying that we should expect to achieve perfect justice in this world, rather than in the next? Or am I off track entirely?
I was responding to your post that stated that we should expect to lose.
You replied: As an historian whose major field was Modern Europe, I read the historical record far differently than you do. It's not worth arguing about.
Yes, you do read history differently--your method is called "blame the victim." It's the same method Bill Clinton used with regard to Waco: "some religious fanatics burned themselves alive." By your reading, Martin Luther King should have just put up with Jim Crow laws and Gandhi should have told his fellow Hindus to buck up and take their medicine.
And these are rhetorical arguments, in case you were wondering about the genre. If you don't want to bother with reason, perhaps you'll be interested in rhetoric.
Incidentally, I have a degree in history too. So as far as the appeal to authority is concerned, we're even. But, as Aristotle said, that's the weakest of arguments.
Oh.
You bring me back to the Cuomo-Kerry Corollary: "The Only Good Catholic is a Bad Catholic."
What should be particularly disturbing to Catholic voters is that the largest single block of senators who are truly anti-American in their view of the political process are also the major anti-Christian voting block in the Senate: a group of thirteen "Catholic" senators, the most vociferous Culture of Death proponents (Biden, Collins, Daschle, Dodd, Durbin, Harkin, Kennedy, Kerry, Landrieu, Leahy, Milkulski, Murray, Reed).
If you've been following the rhetorical trends around the judicial confirmation process, you'll have noticed that a nominee can be considered defective if he or she admits to being a practicing Catholic, rather than just an nominal one (e.g. Judge Charles Pickering.) By this do not, of course, mean merely "churchgoing": I mean one whose mind is convinced of of certain truths, and whose will is willing to live those truths.
This did not mean "breaking the law to live these truths." It meant --- in the case of Pickering --- acknowledging the Judeo-Christian roots of Western law, as anyone, even an honest agnostic jurist, should rightly do.
Beyond the question of Catholic fidelity to a religiously-informed sense of right and wrong: as I remember it, Robert Bork was "borked" mostly on account of his acknowledgement of the tradition of Natural Law.
And others ----- I could make a longer list --- have been deemed unacceptable because they were too Constitutionalist.
Our opponents allow the acknowledgement of nothing but positive law in its crudest form: whatever Just-So Story was handed down 3 hours ago by the robed oligarchs, s**** God, s**** our common humanity, and s**** the Constitution.
THAT concept of law is truly lawless. It deserves the obedience of nobody.
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