Putin deplores collapse of USSR

BBC News ^ | April 25, 2005

[HAL9000]

Russia's President Vladimir Putin has described the collapse of the Soviet Union as "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe" of the 20th century.

Mr Putin's annual state of the nation address to parliament was broadcast live on Russian television.

He said the break-up of the USSR in 1991 was "a real drama" which left tens of millions of Russians outside the Russian Federation.

He also said Russia must develop as a "free and democratic" country.

But he stressed that Russia "will decide for itself the pace, terms and conditions of moving towards democracy".

"We are a free nation and our place in the modern world will be defined only by how successful and strong we are".

It was Mr Putin's second state of the nation address since being re-elected by a landslide in 2004.

[jb6]

Why in the world would Iran or Iraq build pipelines running north, through some of the highest mountains in the world, only to then have it shipped by sea to satisfy you? Hahaah, they have established pipelines to established ports in their own countries without having the value of the oil sapped by tariffs. Fantasy. Oh and by the way, Iraqi oil is primarly bought by the US and we have more money and claim on it then you ever will. Iranian oil goes primarly to China. Sorry, you'll get the world price and you'll like it, plus tanker transport fees. Ouch.

[jb6]

I don't give a shit about soldiers of the red star.

You mean communists, like your own rulers.

[Lukasz]

I must disappoint you again, Iranians and Armenians want to build gas pipe to Armenia and Georgians and Ukrainians are thinking about extension. This is project for future (I mean extension), because first goal is of course Caspian region.

[RusIvan]

looks like you'll always find some justification for Putin - no matter what he says.===

Accualy opposite. If you red first hand source then you would agree with me.
You know many western media either don't have good russian speaking translator or just want to find something ":fried" in words of Putin. In in persue for sensation they little bit change the genuine words.
It is easy lizol to check wnat I say.
Just read his speech yourself. I hope you will understand russian.
http://vip.lenta.ru/doc/2005/04/25/putin/
"...Ïðåæäå âñåãî ñëåäóåò ïðèçíàòü, ÷òî êðóøåíèå Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà áûëî êðóïíåéøåé ãåîïîëèòè÷åñêîé êàòàñòðîôîé âåêà. Äëÿ ðîññèéñêîãî æå íàðîäà îíî ñòàëî íàñòîÿùåé äðàìîé. Äåñÿòêè ìèëëèîíîâ íàøèõ ñîãðàæäàí è ñîîòå÷åñòâåííèêîâ îêàçàëèñü çà ïðåäåëàìè ðîññèéñêîé òåððèòîðèè. ..."
SO you may see: "...it was for USSR was geopolitical catastrophy. (What else if this state was just disbanded.)
For russians it was "drama" (not tragedy!) because millions of russians happened to be outside of Russia's territory..."

That is it. NO sensation! Hence so much dramatization on this forum occured just because author of this article transtated words of Putin very very distorted:))).

[Grzegorz 246]

No, I mean soldiers of the red star.


President Vladimir Putin this week approved a request by the Russian army to reinstate the Soviet-era red star as its symbol.

[RussianBoor]

This nice person just wishes death to Russians. Very simple. I do not even want to remind him or others that 600,000 of the "soldiers of the red star" died saving him from Hitler. He would prefer Nazi, of course, he would not wish Nazi soldiers dead. Never mind. No meaning in arguing with a hired stooge.

[RussianBoor]

Well, first of all, thank you for your kind words about my intelligence and not entirely evil Russians :)) As for us being doomed, I think, following one of my favorite writers Mark Twain, the rumors of our death are being greatly exaggerated :))

You have raised several points. Let's start from the backward society. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the works of Banfield, but what you have said is in fact part of the problem of transaction costs. Indeed, transitional and underdeveloped ("backward") economies suffer from high transaction costs that are due to the absence of trust and, more importantly, lack of proper enforcement mechanisms such as non-corrupt and efficient judicial system. Italy is a good example indeed. All post-socialist countries of the Eastern Europe are also good examples, Russia included. The transaction costs are admiringly low in the US, which indeed explains to a major extent your economic strength. However, this does not mean that all other economies are doomed. There are ways of dealing with this situation. I cannot say I am happy with the level of understanding of the seriousness of the problem demonstrated by the Russian government, but I cannot also say that Russia is "morally bankrupt and incapable of modern infrastructures". This rumor is extremely exaggerated :))

It is quite possible that you do not know this but the merchant ethics in pre-Soviet Russia was one of the strongest in the world. People were more often dealing against their word of honor rather than using written contracts. Seventy years of Communism had destroyed much of this but you will be amazed how much did survive. So I would be more careful with dooming anybody based on incomplete evidence.

"Silly aspiration of imperialism". Well, aspirations of imperialism in the modern world are always dangerous and often destructive. America will do well if it remembers this when determining its strategy in the post-Iraq world. However, again the evidence is quite incomplete and suffers from media cliche. There are many levels to this discussion, we can continue if you still be interested. In brief: Russia does not want to rule or own anybody. Russia wants to have good and friendly relations with everybody, but especially with its sister countries. You do not charge that Brits are imperialists because they maintain the British Commonwealth and Queen Elizabeth II formally rules Canada and Australia. And Canada, Australia, South Africa, India, etc.etc.etc. are indeed former British colonies, as are the United States. Ukraine has never been a Russian colony. It has never been conquered or settled by Russians. Ukraine is a sister nation which was separated from Russia in a very specific historical situation (conquered by Poland, to be precise) and then reunited with Russia, and this reunification happened well before the establishment of the USA. We lived in a single state for 350 years, since 1654. This is a long time to take the current problems in the Russian-Ukrainian relations lightly. You would not take it lightly if Texas and California were to cede, won't you? And you did take Texas and California by force and colonized them (i.e., settled there), which was never the case with Ukraine. Right now the historical situation is that you do not fear cessation of Texas and California. Nobody in the Soviet Union feared cessation of Ukraine only 20 years ago.

[spanalot]

"As for us being doomed, I think, following one of my favorite writers Mark Twain, the rumors of our death are being greatly exaggerated :))"

When Reagan jawboned oil down to $14/ barrel , it doomed Russia aka USSR and it will happen again when oil goes back to the $20's

"It is quite possible that you do not know this but the merchant ethics in pre-Soviet Russia was one of the strongest in the world. People were more often dealing against their word of honor rather than using written contracts. Seventy years of Communism had destroyed much of this but you will be amazed how much did survive."

Banfield notes that a lack of ethics and trust is more damning for economies than any other factor.

You admit that Russia lots its ethics under the communists and whatever survived is now being hamhanded by Putin. Investors flee coutries ruled by despots that have imperial intentions.

"Silly aspiration of imperialism". Well, aspirations of imperialism in the modern world are always dangerous and often destructive. America will do well if it remembers this when determining its strategy in the post-Iraq world"

America is not imperialist - it saved the world from the fascists and communists and the Japanese militarists over the course of two world wars. Russia is imperialistic - it is a parasite to the countries it conquers eg the Baltic states, Ukraine, Czech, Hungary because its inefficient despotic system cannot create value otherwise.

"Ukraine has never been a Russian colony. It has never been conquered or settled by Russians."

You are right and a better example would be a blood sucking vampire.

The czars used the human engine of the Breadbasket of Europe
to build St Pete as did the Communists when they sucked it dry during the famine genocides of 1921, 1932, and 1947.

What is the present value of all the posessions of 15 million people as well as the million of tons of food they would have consumed over the course of 5 or 6 years starting in 1921.

I could ball park it at $80 Billion.

Surely you don't think that an inefficient system like Communism can create the value needed for $5/lb beluga cavier and chandaliered subways.

No this came from the proceeds of the liquidaton of tens of millions.

Russia is most definitely doomed as it can no longer subsidize its inefficient system with human biomass.

I look forward to Red Square being renamed Orange. Then Russia will have joined the 21st century.

[RussianBoor]

I am sorry I started talking economics, Mark Twain and other advanced matters with you. It was highly unintelligent on my part to take such an obvious bait. I will make it then a bit simpler for your understanding.

1. Oil. Go ahead and jawbone the oil to $20. Do not forget to stop Chinese consumption in the process. When you do, think about your current account deficit and how it is covered by Chinese holding T-notes. Ah, sorry, I forgot. We do not talk even simple economics.

2. When you read some other books in addition to Banfield, you will understand that there are some other pretty important economic factors as well.

3. I do not give a damn about your investors. Russia is in fact a major investor itself. The goal is to keep these moneys at home. Americans may keep theirs to create some jobs instead of those gone to China.

4. You may be amused but America was not the main saviour from both Communism and Nazism. The American help is gratefully acknowledged but we did the main portion of the two jobs ourselves. America was prepared to make piece with Nazi and had lived with Communism for decades. You had waited until 1944 to really start fighting Hitler. Do not delude yourself.

5. The breadbasket of Europe as named by you lies almost entirely outside the Ukrainian borders as of 1654. Read a couple of books before posting. More than half of the territory of modern Ukraine was acquired when Ukraine was part of Russian Empire/USSR with all the consequences.

6. You do not even know the correct dates of the Ukrainian famine. Note please that the famine of 1932-1933 was every bit as severe in the Russian Don, Kuban and Volga territories. The Communists were killing free peasants, Russians and Ukrainians alike.

7. You continue to equal Russia and Communism. Get used to the fact that Russia and USSR are not the same thing.

8. Russia is most definitely doomed as it can no longer subsidize its inefficient system with human biomass.
Your wishful thinking continues to amuse me. In fact, I have already written here, I doubt many Americans would have survived and succeeded in the circumstances as were in Russia in 1990-s. However, you may continue to wait for your definite doom to come true. Good luck.

[spanalot]

" I will make it then a bit simpler for your understanding.

1. Oil. Go ahead and jawbone the oil to $20. Do not forget to stop Chinese consumption in the process. When you do, think about your current account deficit and how it is covered by Chinese holding T-notes. Ah, sorry, I forgot. We do not talk even simple economics."

Yes - I do apologize for my ignorance - an ignorance that would have doubled an investment in sweet texan crude puts in just 48 hours.

Now how did I know that oil was to plummet?

---

"When you read some other books in addition to Banfield, you will understand that there are some other pretty important economic factors as well."

What books do you suggest? "Das Kapital", or perhaps a little Heller? Friedman? I don't think you would recommend Hayek.

---

" I do not give a damn about your investors. Russia is in fact a major investor itself. The goal is to keep these moneys at home. Americans may keep theirs to create some jobs instead of those gone to China."

Yes - that is the mentality that will cause the failure of Russia and that is the moral bankruptcy that Banfield spoke of.

You believe in central control of the economy - we believe in market economy - and always have. If the jobs go to China, we did not want them anyway. Maybe they come back, maybe we create new industries like the internet.

Could the internet have been discovered in Russia? No!

Faith, Freedom, and Market Economy will be our salvation and your demise.

---

"You may be amused but America was not the main saviour from both Communism and Nazism. The American help is gratefully acknowledged but we did the main portion of the two jobs ourselves. "

Really - I never knew Putin was so active in bringing down the Kremlin and saving the middle east and the far east from tyranny.

The Kremlin would not have fought Hitler unless it was invaded.
Ever hear of Litvinov?

---

"You do not even know the correct dates of the Ukrainian famine. Note please that the famine of 1932-1933 was every bit as severe in the Russian Don, Kuban and Volga territories. The Communists were killing free peasants, Russians and Ukrainians alike."

---

I guess you are disputing the fact that the Kremlin killed nearly 3 million in 1921 and 1947.

And regarding the deaths in the caucuses, that is only because they were heavily populated by Ukrainian emmigrants, German emmigrants, cossacks and other enemies of communism. Sorry - your spin has spun out.


http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/famine_map.html

[RussianBoor]

You see, I am really not in the mood to squabble, especially since today is the Holy Saturday. I never said I believe in central control of the economy, and there is no central control of the economy in Russia now. In fact, there is probably more central control in the US than in Russia. Definitely more in Europe. Your jobs go to China because China does not use market controls, it uses central control, in particular, of the exchange rate. Keeping money at home means make them safe there, not expropriate them.

About "discovering" Internet... Ever been to the Silicon Valley? Met Russians there? Really...your new industries work as far as you can find qualified immigrants to run them, and current attitude in the US towards immigrants will likely kill this.

About the famine. I know this trick. I am from a Don cossack family. Tell me my ancestors were being starved for being Ukrainians. They were definitely enemies of Communism but they were not Ukrainians and I despise the fact that their ordeals are being used by Ukrainian nationalists. This is a shameful trick to declare all the victims of Communist expropriations "Ukrainians" to support the dirty nationalist agenda. If I were you I would have been thoroughly ashamed.

[spanalot]

You a cossack?!?!

I think this conversation has reached its conclusion.