BROKEN GATES 'It just doesn't feel like Holland any more'

BROKEN GATES'It just doesn't feel like Holland any more' Troubled by the changes immigration has brought to their country, the van Ramhorst family is coming to Canada

ROTTERDAM -- To a visitor, the village of Nijkerk looks like a model of Dutch calm and order, its neat streets filled with cyclists and lined with tiny townhouses.

But to Bert van Ramshorst and his family, the town no longer feels like home. Its citizens now come in a variety of hues and hold a wide range of beliefs, some of them deeply at odds with the pacifism and expansive liberalism that has long characterized Dutch society.

"I've lived here, in this town, almost all of my life, and it just doesn't feel like Holland any more," the 42-year-old electrical contractor said, as he took a break from packing to sit with his wife and three young children in their narrow, cozy living room. "It doesn't feel like the place where I want to raise my family."

So the van Ramshorst family, troubled by the changes brought about by immigration, have decided to become immigrants themselves.

With their move to Vancouver this summer, they are joining an unprecedented number of people from the Netherlands who have decided, in recent months, to make a new home in what they see as the more comforting and less divisive Canada.

The sudden exodus to Canada has taken the Dutch government entirely by surprise.

During the past year, and especially during the past five months, the number of Dutch citizens applying to depart for faraway countries -- notably Canada, as well as New Zealand and Australia -- has increased to levels not seen in the tiny nation's modern history.

Most of those emigrants, according to the people who help them make their moves, are leaving because of their complex and surprising feelings about the changes to Dutch society brought about by immigration.

For some, the desire to leave is a response to the immigrants themselves, and what many people here view as their violent, divisive, non-Dutch ways.

But just as many Dutch immigrants seem to be alarmed that immigration has turned their countrymen into angry, intolerant nationalists.

In just about every country in Europe, immigration has become the most significant political issue, by far, in public opinion, media attention and parliamentary action. In Germany, France, Britain and Italy, immigrants have become the dominant election issue.

Faced with shrinking, aging populations and the attendant economic costs, most European countries are badly in need of immigrants. In some countries, this has led to culture shock.

The ethnic cleansing and mass migration of the two world wars left many European countries with one dominant ethnic group, so the presence of large numbers of visibly different people has alarmed and alienated many residents.

Nowhere is this being more strongly felt than in traditionally tolerant, open nations such as Britain and the Netherlands.

While both countries face severe labour shortages and therefore cannot give up on immigration, the public reaction to the demographic changes has been nothing short of fury.

In the campaign leading toward the May 5 national election in Britain, polls show that immigration is by far the most significant issue to voters of all classes and backgrounds -- outpacing by an enormous margin other hot topics such as crime and taxation.

Even the governing left-wing Labour Party has felt compelled to adopt the angry rhetoric of the anti-immigrant right, and has promised to cut back the number of refugees accepted (if not the number of immigrants).

In the Netherlands, the reaction has been equally heated. But there, people are voting with their feet.

"The entire society is changing and people are longing for the world of 20, 30 years ago -- some people believe they can only find that by leaving," says Frans Buysse, a former Canadian embassy employee who runs Holland's largest agency for people wishing to emigrate to Canada.

Mr. Buysse can pinpoint the precise moment when the Dutch outflow became a full-scale flood. On Nov. 2, the libertine filmmaker

Theo van Gogh was murdered in a bloody throat slitting by a Muslim extremist while cycling on an Amsterdam street. To outsiders, it seemed a strange, passing crime. But the Dutch responded, within their tight-knit community, the way some Americans did to the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

Suddenly, people were noticing immigrant crimes, and committing crimes against immigrants: December saw the firebombing of several mosques and Islamic schools.

During the next four weeks, Mr. Buysse received 13,000 on-line applications from people requesting information on moving to Canada -- more than four times the usual level. Since then, this increase hasn't stopped. And, he says, the thousands of people he has helped move to Canada during the past few years have mentioned either immigration, or intolerance resulting from immigration, as a reason for leaving.

"For certain people, Nov. 2 was a confirmation of their beliefs," he said. "As a society, we have always been very tolerant to people from other places -- for hundreds of years, this has been the case -- but we have become so tolerant that some groups are influencing society in such a way that it starts to become intolerant. People are fed up with this."

While Dutch emigrants cite numerous reasons for going to Canada, including job opportunities, a desire for adventure, and especially the wide-open spaces that are almost absent from the Netherlands, Mr. Buysse and other immigration workers say it is the tension over immigration that has pushed the emigrant numbers so high recently.

According to the Dutch Central Bureau of Statistics, 49,000 people emigrated last year, the highest number since 1954 and a dramatic increase over approximately 30,000 in 1999.

But the statistics do not reveal the strange and often contradictory motives that are driving away thousands of citizens of the Netherlands, a country that has better standards of health care, education and social services and a lower crime rate than most Canadian cities.

The Dutch, a trading people, have had outsiders in their midst for centuries. And while the past two decades have seen a more open approach to immigration from non-European countries, something about this latest wave has deeply galvanized the country against immigration.

Some blame the Dutch policy of cultural segregation, where groups such as North African Muslims are allowed to attend their own schools and not encouraged to learn the local language or culture. Others blame the simple insularity of Dutch society, which forces newcomers into such enclaves, with little hope of wider acceptance.

For two computer technicians in Rotterdam, the problem has to do not with immigration itself, but with the Dutch response to it. In the view of Ge-An Van Rossum, 36, and her husband, Bas Rijniersce, 29, Canada is a place where the tension between immigrants and non-immigrants does not exist, because that distinction does not exist.

"Canadians are all immigrants," Mr. Rijniersce said from the austere living room of their flat in a funky corner of Rotterdam. "One or two generations back, they all emigrated from somewhere else. But here in the Netherlands there has been quite a lot of problems with this question -- integration doesn't work so well. In Canada it's worked better, though I don't know why. There's a little bit more tolerance between people than there is here."

For Mr. van Ramshorst, the small-town electrician, the problem is simply that Holland has let too many people in without any attention to their ability to fit into Dutch society.

"The last 10 years, our government's policy was to tolerate almost everything, and that's not good," he said. "There's law, and there's respect of the law, and you can't just let people do anything. Tolerance is very important, but we've reached the point where we're tolerating people who despise our way of life and want to damage it."

Those fleeing what they see as a degenerating society face difficulties with Canada's immigration system. Even for the well-educated Dutch, it takes two or three years to get an unsponsored application cleared, a tougher process than most people undergo to get into the Netherlands, although Canada takes far more immigrants, as a proportion of its population, than Holland.

This difficulty has become an inspiration for some in the Netherlands, who blame their country's ad hoc immigration system for the cultural clashes. Some favour adopting the Canadian system wholesale.

"We are only now beginning to understand that now we are an immigrant country, and that we therefore need an immigration law," Mr. Buysse said. "Canada has understood that for a long time, and its points system seems to be a good model for us."

So it may seem surprising, after all the effort and research involved, that both the van Ramshorst and the Van Rossum families have decided to settle in the area immediately around Vancouver. (Dutch immigration consultants say that Alberta and British Columbia are the two most popular destinations.) After all, this is a highly multicultural region that has had its own conflicts over assimilation and intolerance.

But both families said that they don't see this as a problem -- in fact, they see B.C.'s heavy immigrant population as benefiting them, as they, too, will be immigrants.

"There's a different social consensus in Canada," Mr. Rijniersce said. "People are more interested in becoming part of Canadian society, and nobody makes a big deal about their arrival."

An unprecedented number of Dutch citizens are deciding to leave Holland and seek citizenship in Canada to escape what they see as at home.

"Canadians are all immigrants" .

I wonder who clued that gentleman on Canada?. Right across the country, especially if one travels by road, they will see these signs.

First Nations Band of -----.

A person of mainly European stock, may be 128th part "native". They get many priviledges if status Indian. Careful people, says I. Watch yer language.

It is in at least two big cities, that the "Dutch problem" is being hatched. May take twenty years, but that is the way it is going. Certain new groups positively aggressive and telling Canadians- "this is my culture,keep out". Objections to this attitude,by old stock Canadians, are mostly classed as Racist. Sometimes the "Human Rights" agencies will inform Canadians- "YOU must change- it is multi-culture"

On the positive side, it is Canada's vast geographical being, that keeps parts of Canada Canadian- in spite of the Canadian government. Small city/town Canada does indeed exist.

In the view of Ge-An Van Rossum, 36, and her husband, Bas Rijniersce, 29, Canada is a place where the tension between immigrants and non-immigrants does not exist, because that distinction does not exist. "Canadians are all immigrants," Mr. Rijniersce said....

Wrong on a lot of counts.

For one thing, these immigrants are different. They are Muslim, and have an entirely different agenda than joining a society. They seek to rule it through Sharia Law.

Canada is letting Muslims in by the hordes will soon have the same problems as the Netherlands.

We used to travel across Canada a lot, between Detroit and Buffalo. We always stopped in the large rest area near Woodstock. We did that a few weeks ago for the first time in about 5 years. We were shocked by the large number of Muslims in attendance there. Before, there were always some. This last time around it seemed like nearly a majority. We felt like we were in Pakistan. Maybe we hit it on a bad day? Whatever. IMHO, the apparent trend doesn't bode well for Canada. Muslims are already demanding Sharia Law be used to adjudicate their civil cases. The Islamic camel is already head and shoulders under the Canadian tent.

These fleeing Dutch would be better served seeking another refuge, or, better yet, kicking the Muslims out of their own country and bringing back their own civilization before it is too late.

FYI - If I'm not mistaken, freeholland, this has been your stated position, and the reason for which you moved to the United States 20 years ago. I can understand that the problem is truly a Catch-22 for the native Dutch people. Your birth rate isn't keeping up with the labor requirements, thereby necessitating continuing immigration from Muslim countries. They, in turn, are eating the Netherlands alive, bite by bite, town by town, city by city.

I recall a story that you told me over two years ago, related to you by your parents who still reside in Amsterdam. You said that Muslims practice the slaughter of sheep and lambs by hanging the animals over the balconies of their apartments, with the blood flowing down however many floors there happen to be, to the streets below.

What an appalling nightmare life in the formerly peaceful Holland has become. I'd say that until a "force majeure" is assembled to deal with this scourge, it will get worse, before it gets better..........and Dutch patriots should pay attention to the words spoken by the head Imam of the largest mosgue in your neighboring country, Denmark, who said, in 2002, "Within five years, all of Denmark will be under Sharia law!" - Same for Holland, from the way things look at the moment.

Belgium will be next, then we could see "The Fall of Europe" to the "new islamic Caliphate."

It will end like Bosnia.

The muslims will provoke them to fight back. Muslims will define themselves as innocent victims of religious intolerance. The UN will be "forced" to act to protect the muslims "human rights". The invasion will continue with the aid of UN "peacekeepers" until the number of muslims reaches a "critical mass" and becomes the intolerant theocracy they are known for.

The UN will announce that their "mission" is "over" (success or failure are ambiguous) and they will move on to destroy other nations.

Tolerance = Death

I think it would be good if the US let in some of these people, but some of the more productive types will probably find a way to come here eventually. Canada may just be a stepping stone. My eye doctor, for instance, emigrated from South Africa to Canada. He's an Afrikaner. Then after a little while came to the United States.

Let's face it, if you're productive, this is the place to be. Canada has less opportunities and higher taxes, plus it's colder.

One thing about the Netherlands and most European countries is that immigrants really don't have a stake in their new country, and neither do their children born in those countries. Traditionally, in the United States, when immigrants came over from Poland, Germany, Scandinavia, wherever, they'd often keep speaking the old language at home. But their kids would speak both. And the grandchildren would speak only English. What we've done lately is ensure that generations of Americans cannot speak English. That's why so many hispanics are not integrating well into our society. Another thing about European countries is that kids born there aren't citizens of the new country. So they never really have a stake, plus they don't speak Dutch or whatever.

Mexicans are not radical Muslims

That may be true but the effect of transforming a nation, especially by destroying the unifying force of language, pretty much has the same results.

At some point, the native population will simply tolerate Mexicans to the demise of their own native culture and language.

Americans will be "enriched" to death.

Mexicans are not radical Muslims

No, but illegals, mostly Mexican, do represent approximately 25% of the prison population in California. Not to mention the fact that many of the Mexicans refuse to learn English which is why you and I have to suffer through bilingual business messages, etc. And if you think that the only folks crossing the Southern border illegally are Mexican you are sadly mistaken. The article was about a Western culture being transformed for the worse by third-world immigration. We are experiencing the same phenomenon here.

"TOLERATION" the religion of secular liberals is not a coherent or complete philosophy. I had this exact argument about 10 years ago with a friends wife. She said Christians wanted to teach values in public schools and was appalled. I said everyone wants to teach values, the argument is about which values. I said "tolerance days" are a value, one I did not want my children to have foisted on them. I want my children to "discriminate and fight".

I want them to know right from wrong and fight for right.

The article was about a Western culture being transformed for the worse by third-world immigration. We are experiencing the same phenomenon here.

Nowhere is that more apparent than here in Salinas. Just try going to Walmart on Saturday or Sunday, and see how many aisles you have to walk through to hear anyone speaking anything but Spanish. Heck, I was in there last week and the customer service employee in the shoe department couldn't speak English! I lodged two complaints about that. Then I looked up at the monitors that run the in-store ads, and it was all in Spanish too--not even translated! It's getting weirder and weirder.

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