Georgia responsible for Soviet genocide, claims Russian ambassador to Ukraine

UPI ^ | Apr. 21, 2005

[Tailgunner Joe]

According to former Russian Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin, now Russian ambassador to Ukraine, Georgia is more to blame for the Soviet genocide against Ukrainians than Russia. Chernomyrdin told journalists, "If we speak about terror in the times of the U.S.S.R., as a result of that, the number of Russians killed was far greater than that of Ukrainians. We still cannot answer to our people for that. If anyone is to receive claims, address them to Georgia, the 'father of nations' Joseph Stalin was from that country." During the U.S.S.R.'s 1932-1933 collectivization drive, an estimated 5 million to 7 million Ukrainians in the "bread basket" of the U.S.S.R. perished during a famine deliberately instituted by Stalin.

[RussianBoor]

You are not entirely correct. The capitulation was signed in Berlin on May 8, 1945, at 11:45 pm. In Russia 11:45pm was 2:45 am May 9th. So May 9th rather than May 8th became the V-day. Germans did sign separate surrender document in Rheims on May 7. That's because Germans tried very hard to surrender to Western Allies only and they sent the mission to the Western Allies High Command then headquartered in Rheims, France, but NOT to Russian command. The capitulation in Berlin was NOT a separate capitulation, it was signed by both Russian and Allied commanders. British Air Marshal Sir Arthur Tedder signed as an Allied representative and Gen. Carl Spaatz of the U.S. Air Forces and Gen. Jean de Lattre de Tassigny of France signed as witnesses. The Berlin document was also signed by the highest ranking officers of the German side, which was not the case in Rheims. Signing the capitulation in Berlin was necessary to avoid the impression of a separate piece with the Western Allies, and the decision of the Allied forces to sign this new document is absolutely justified. Unfortunately, such a goodwill did not last long.

[RussianBoor]

Ivan,

Nobody says that Russia is an ideal. But Russia is not a universal villain either as it is painted here.

[RussianBoor]

Looking for the 5th column among the immigrants (I do not know about jb6 personally but there are many Russian immigrants in the US) is a sign of weakness. A really powerful culture and state does not fear immigrants, and America has never feared immigrants before. A sign of decline perhaps?

I was quite amazed by your attitude to immigrants indeed (not only this post but several others in this thread). I am glad personally that, having several job offers from the US and Canada, I decided to go to Canada. Other people I know (highly qualified professionals) now prefer to work in Northern Europe, Ireland and the U.K., as well as in Russia proper. 10 years ago they were going to the US. Now your principal immigrant is an illiterate Mexican. Prepare to buy technologies from us.

Apart from technologies, how many immigrants or immigrant kids serve in the U.S. Army? And you are looking for the 5th column among them? As a thank you for their serving the US? A good lesson in ungratefulness.

[Romanov]

I'm a victim of Soviet propaganda! ;) My previous post was how the Russian tourguide at the museum explained it.... (1988)

[Kozak]

So why Russia is not a part of a state with capital in Kiev ?

Easy. Mongols.

[Romanov]

"Can yopu imagine what born-american like you will say if you lived here."

I live in Moscow (mostly), travel all over the former Soviet Union and can state emphatically that the situation has definitely improved since 1995 (my first time over there - t.e. 10 years in-country exp). Granted, the provinces are "dying" out (villages emptied of able-bodied people, etc). However, I don't think I would label say that they are not a free society. In some ways, they are freer than we are. There's a difficult balance over there - trying to reign in corruption while trying to keep the narod happy. Having said that, to me Russia is like a kid with tons of potential but who somehow always manages to screw things up - the ultimate underacheiver.

[Romanov]

"Looking for the 5th column among the immigrants (I do not know about jb6 personally but there are many Russian immigrants in the US) is a sign of weakness."

Well put! All of this "5th Column" stuff reminds me of a conservative version of the liberals' tactic to call anyone who disagrees with them a fascist (Godwin's Law)..

[RussianBoor]

And the Polish-Lithuanian invaders who did not hesitate for a moment to take as much as they could while Rus fought Mongols. The fact that Polish-Lithuanians were allies of Mongols in the Kulikov Battle dwarfs in villainy the notorious Molotov-Ribbenthrop Act.

[Kozak]

A really powerful culture and state does not fear immigrants, and America has never feared immigrants before. A sign of decline perhaps?

Not true at all sir. Read the history of the "Know Nothings", "Nativists". We have ALWAYS been ambivilent about immigrants, and the pendulum has swung back and forth between wide open immigration and strict control. We are currently in the greatest period of immigration in our history. What we are seeing now is a natural reaction to 40 years of massive legal and ILLEGAL immigration that is transforming the fabric of the nation. At the same time the old "melting pot" paradigm of immigration has been destroyed, making assimilation difficult if not immposible.

What I and many others want is a pause, a break, a hiatus, so we can catch our breath, try and deal with the immigrants we have and try and formulate some kind of RATIONAL POLICY for future immigration.

[RussianBoor]

I absolutely agree about the freedom here and there. In fact, sometimes this freedom is too unrestrained, at least, to my tastes. Funny, we have kind of "traded places", I lived in Moscow (with interruptions) all my life until 2001.

About underachieving. This is a purely American concept. Success and happiness are far from being synonyms in Russia. Quite a lot of people over there like to be underachievers in American terms. You may know the Russian proverb, one cannot earn all the money in the world? Americans think otherwise ;))

[Romanov]

Re: Underachieving - very true. That's one of the more frustrating things I've run into over here. A lot of people just do enough (at work) to get by. However, I must say that most of the female Russians I've worked with have been more goal-oriented than their male counterparts.

[Kozak]

Don't think the Mongols reallly needed much help in this.

Five years after the fall of Kiev, Papal envoy Giovanni di Plano Carpini wrote:

"They destroyed cities and castles and killed men and Kiev, which is the greatest Russian city they besieged; and when they had besieged it a long while they took it and killed the people of the city. So when we went through that country we found countless human skulls and bones from the dead scattered over the field. Indeed it had been a very great and populous city and now is reduced almost to nothing. In fact there are hardly two hundred houses there now and the people are held in the strictest servitude." Refugees from this death and devastation in Ukraine fled west area towards Poland.

As a result of the destruction of the cities and the tribute demanded by the Mongols, the lack of resources brought Ukraine to a standstill. With the Mongols most strongly situated in the Ukrainian southwest, the northeastern Russian cities gradually gained more influence - first Tver, and then, around the turn of the 14th century, Moscow. It wasn't until 1480 that Moscow became strong enough to finally throw off Mongolian rule - the Mongols contributed to the ascendency of Moscow over Kiev.

Sigh. This is the original Catastrophe from which the Ukraine never really recovered. Maybe it can finally have a chance....

[RusIvan]

Sigh. This is the original Catastrophe from which the Ukraine never really recovered.==

It wasn't Ukraine at that time it was central of Kiev Rus. By "ukraine" (forest ukraine) at that time was called Northern Rus: Vladimir-Suzdal duchery& Tver duchery& Novgorod with Pskov. Which is now central Russia:).

The lands around Kiev was called "Ukraine" when becomes attached area to Great Luthvinia.

[RussianBoor]

The immigration to Canada was probably even more massive, in per capita terms. The positive attitude to immigrants is a sure sign of growing society. This does not imply that the attitude and the direction of growth cannot change several times over time. Current examples: UK, Ireland. This just means that right now the society in question is a reactionary one. And, whatever you may think, the influx of immigrants, especially from Europe, made the US the world power, especially in science, technology, engineering, but also in many other aspects. Look at biographies of famous Hollywood actors and directors of the 1950-1960s, and those are the people who made the Hollywood known around the world. You may of course continue to formulate your policies but this policy has its price. I wonder if the Great Depression had its roots in the early swings of the pendulum?

[RussianBoor]

Basically, it does not matter much. Those were all our ancestors...

[GOP_1900AD]

But jb6 is NOT an immigrant .... at least that's the claim. He's a WASP who converted to Orthodoxy. That's my narrow area of focus - the (understanably) Clinton / Balkan War hating Americans who, in converting to Orthodoxy, became susceptible to foreign influence. As a grandson of an immigrant myself, and someone who has many current immigrant friends, my finding, with the exception of the Chinese "diaspora," has been that foreign influence may actually rope in non immigrants more easily than immigrants. The immigrant came here for a reason, and is less likely to be a malcontent, so long as assimilation is underway.

[RussianBoor]

My (possibly highly controversial opinion) is that the only way Ukraine can recover as you say and avoid further turmoil is to stress common rather than divisive values. It is a cleft country, as Huntington terms it, which is true. I cannot understand the aggressive anti-Russian policy of the current government. In addition to common history and ancestry, Russia and Ukraine will always be neighbors and Russians and Ukrainians will continue to be the closest peoples, culturally and otherwise. There have been much bad blood, granted. However, if French can live next door to Germans, why could not Ukrainians and Russians be close friends? I avoid the word brother, it carries too many bad feelings. Just friends.

I am from a Cossack family too. Quite possibly, my far-far ancestors came from Ukraine since the family name is of Ukrainian origin. I am a Russian and not a Ukrainian, but how can I be anybody but a friend to Ukrainians?

[RussianBoor]

Local male Russian variety is a problem indeed. Communists tried hard to kill the best. Much too often women had to take over after the deaths of their husbands, to survive and bring up kids. Look, the symbol of Russia, Rodina-Mat', like in Volgograd... she is a woman whose husband and father and brothers were killed and she had to take this sword herself to defend the kids and her home... This does not come from nowhere. Too many invasions over the history. And we are routinely branded aggressive ;-(

[RussianBoor]

You see, the concept of foreign influence is so familiar to me... Foreign influence, subversive activities, dissidents... Communists feared foreign influence so much they would not allow to sell Cola. A strong society has nothing to fear from foreign influence. I am in fact very sad that such attitudes are growing in the US. We are all scions of the same civilization. If we all stop peddling our differences and look at a broader picture... you have named Chinese yourself.

[Kozak]

True, in that they MUST learn to live together in peace and friendship. I wish all in region only the best, that Russian people as well prosper and manage to form a functioning democracy ( that in itself will be best guarantee of peace for region ), and finally get to benefit from the potential wealth their nation possesses. I have been most heartened by the staunch support of Poles throughout the recent turmoil over the elections.

I personally believe that Ukraine must jettison lots of baggage from the past, that ALL who reside on territory of Ukraine are citizens, regardless of language, religion or ethnicity. Old hatreds must be first among the old baggage to go.

You must understand however that some mistrust will exist for awhile given the facts of history, not so much between people, but between governments. Best posture by Russian government I believe would be a careful hands off approach.
Ukraine must also be careful not to intentionally aggravate relationships.

Given peace, stability and real government by laws protecting rights and property, all concerned should see unprecedented period of prosperity.