Posted on 04/22/2005 10:03:43 AM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
According to former Russian Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin, now Russian ambassador to Ukraine, Georgia is more to blame for the Soviet genocide against Ukrainians than Russia. Chernomyrdin told journalists, "If we speak about terror in the times of the U.S.S.R., as a result of that, the number of Russians killed was far greater than that of Ukrainians. We still cannot answer to our people for that. If anyone is to receive claims, address them to Georgia, the 'father of nations' Joseph Stalin was from that country." During the U.S.S.R.'s 1932-1933 collectivization drive, an estimated 5 million to 7 million Ukrainians in the "bread basket" of the U.S.S.R. perished during a famine deliberately instituted by Stalin.
(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...
Do you agree with post #237 ?
There are 180+ none Russian ethnic groups in Russia and the majority of Russians are mixed in ancestory, so making Russia only for Russians is a dead end road to a steep cliff.
2. All monopolies should be destroyed, period. Use anti-monopoly laws and courts to split up the oligarch empires into smaller nations. Belaruss, if given a direct and free vote, would vote to join Russia. Sure not all would like that but. Lukashenko doesn't want unification anymore. He wanted it when he thought he'd suceed after Yeltsin, but now he's dragging his feet. Lushenko and Putin hate each other but the majority of Belarussians want unification and so, from speaking with a lot of people on this in Russia, do the majority of Russians.
3. I agree with in part. Those CIS who allied with Russia and stayed close deserved the breaks, those who spit in Russia's eye should have been cut free of all subsidies and treated as a regular customer. Georgia is a prime example, they owe more for gas/oil/benzin/electricity then they can ever pay off and spit in Russia's eye all the time. I say cut them off totally, 100% until they come up with the cash to pay their debt (Russian companies should foreclose on Georgian national assets in Russia and world wide to collect on the debts) or start to kiss up to Russia.
4. I'll take it one step further, they need to learn how to work the media and spin things the way the West is masterful at. They need to realize that the Western media hates Russia for various reasons and is out for any thing to turn and twist, along with a lot of Western politicians.
5. True. Better yet, fire the majority of generals by giving them early retirement, let them keep their apartments, as long as they get out of the way.
Excuse me? I was baptised Luthern and raised that way, as I told you. I converted to Orthodoxy in my 20s. Both my parents are Luthern, though my father's extended family is Jewish and Catholic and my mother's Luthern and Catholic. If you're going to start spreading stuff, get it right.
And for your info, I go to a Greek church.
Well that's a different story from what you told me when you first showed up here at FR.
You know, I have heard Germans say of the Austrians: "They have convinced the world that Beethoven was Austrian, and Hitler was a German." The irony of that is that I have heard Austrians refer to themselves as "victims" of the Nazis.
What did I tell you? My family is mixed: Jewish, Prussian, Polish mix that left at different times. As I told you, I was a Luthren who converted in a Greek Church, and that was in response to an anti-Orthodox statement you made, one of those wide sweeping ones.
Tell me about the anti Orthodox statement I've made. I want to know about them. Now I will admit to being critical of the Kremlin, however. And I will also not only admit to this, but will continue to promote my notion that as part of the SCO strategy of "containing American hegemony" - converts to Orthodoxy in Western countries are being targetted by the Kremlin to be conned into split loyalties. That's a geopolitical problem. In such cases, Orthodoxy is the hapless victim as well. I would not attack Orthodoxy per se, but I will not hestitate to point out how it is being used by people who have nothing but hate toward the West.
So then the Lutherins are being used by the Germans in their anti-American drive? How about the Catholics, how often are they then recruited for anti-American initiatives? Or the Anglicans? God forbid Israel ever disagree with us.
No, this problem is pretty much limited to American converts to Orthodoxy, who post on FR, and who are rabid, Putin knee cap suckers, and Kremlin bootlickers.
Yeah, you don't insult Orthodox, nope not at all, just swipe whole sections of Christians with your paint brush. Whatever, we're done.
I don't even read what that dopey guy writes anymore and haven't for a long time. The more he hates Orthodox Christians, the more blessed I think I am in becoming one.
What are you talking about? My critique is specific to "non cradle Orthodox" who are in danger of becoming (if they have not already become) anti American, anti Western 5th Columnists. It is said that the American Protestant (or even, American non believer) who "becomes Orthodox" is more Orthodox than the Orthodox. There is much truth to this. There is a certain passion which makes such individuals susceptible to other things beyond simple religious fervor - such as, pan Slavism, foreign influence, anti Western world views, and the like.
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/research_orthodoxarticle2.html
The most interesting result was for "Proportion of priests (%) whose primary identity is `I am simply American'"
And also interesting is: "Representatives of the other group, however, argue that converts to Eastern Christianity are predominantly the persons who - for various reasons - no longer identify themselves with the mainstream of American society."
http://www.christiantruth.com/orthodoxycominghome.html
"It is for this reason that I stand amazed at the rather simplistic and profoundly naive assertions made by otherwise enthusiastic converts to Eastern Orthodoxy of late."
"My concern for these individuals however, and those who read their stories, is that, in their minds, the Church of Jesus Christ seems to have gained some historical or geographic center, somewhere around Constantinople (or is that Istanbul?), or for those with Slavic sympathies, Moscow ("the third Rome"); or has it since moved again?"
"In assessing the testimonies of converts to Orthodoxy, I am stricken by limitations of testimonials."
"Equally human are the realities of nationalism or liturgical triumphalism within Orthodox communities. Equally fallible are the ethnic enclaves that too many Orthodox parishes have become."
"Whether one is reading the classic works of Orthodox theologians such as Vladimir Lossky, Sergei Bulgakov, Georgii Florovsky, or prominent Orthodox thinkers writing in the West such as John Meyendorff, Alexander Schmemann, or Timothy Ware, the vilification of anything Western (or Latin) permeates the assertions and assumptions found on every page. Converts to Orthodoxy such as Frank Schaeffer repeat this refrain in warning against a "western captivity" of the Church. The deleterious effects of the Enlightenment upon the now "depraved" Western culture and the harmful fallout of the Reformation on religion, viewed as nothing more than the bastard child of "Age of Reason," is the Orthodox's historical "I told you so" for unsuspecting westerners. This gross caricature of western culture is as offensive as it is lopsided. One cannot seriously call it naive or misinformed, specifically on the part of "cradle Orthodox," for that would be too kind in light of the facts they demonstrate a sufficient awareness of."
"However, the Orthodox continue their condescending and historically exaggerated attack on "western confessions" citing the exaltation of reason and the elimination of mystery as intrinsic aspects of the Latin theological heritage."
"Such preposterously lopsided caricatures of western confessions (in this case, Protestantism) fail to consider the rich sense of mystery contained within both Catholic and Protestant figures and systems of thought and practice. In the midst of the Scholastic period, Aquinas' systematization of the contemplative life with respect to the mystical dimension of the faith, as well as his assertion of the via negativa in correlation to the apophatic emphasis in the East, demonstrates a serious acknowledgment of these two dimensions of theology."
"However, the consistent appeal to rationalism as the devilish foundation of the West's departure ignores the careful distinctions men like Aquinas (I purposefully use him as an example for he embodies the very medieval scholasticism that Orthodox apologists carelessly caricature) made regarding the power of reason to understand the mysteries of faith. Like Augustine (a figure equally derided in Orthodox circles), Thomas believed that faith was based in God's revelation in Scripture. He asserted that although God's existence is provable by reason (consistent with Paul's argument in Romans 1) sin obscures man's ability to know and believe in God. He further contends that there are mysteries such as the Trinity (which speaks to the very essence of God and not His energies, to use a Cappadocian distinction) and the incarnation of Christ which cannot be known by reason but by faith alone."
"This issue represents a sorely needed reassessment of the West on the part of the Orthodox. The "adverse" affects of the Enlightenment should not be expounded without an equal consideration of the beneficial aspects of the Latin use of Natural Theology within this context, which would protect against the popular Orthodox conclusion that the social, moral and intellectual evils which permeate Western Christian communities are of necessity endemic to them. Would it be fair to assert that Byzantine political intrigue, Marxism, Communism or any of the cultural nightmares that have plagued the East are endemic to Orthodoxy?"
Did you ever, in your wildest imagination, believe, in say, 1985, that in 2005, you would be in debates with people who used to be normal Americans, but converted the Orthodoxy and went on to become Stalin apologists as well - while meanwhile, the grandson of a real Orthodox Russian immigrant would be at your side, holding off the wolf pack? What a strange world it has become ...
Well he's either Russian and pretending to be American, or, he is American and has been bit by the bug of Kremlin bootlicking, is a 5th columnist, and may as well be Russian.
Ivan,
Russians commemorate the end of WWII one day later than the rest of its (then) allies. The Germans capitulated on May 8th to American and British Forces - Stalin wanted a separate capitulation. So, the Germans capitulated the following day in Berlin (the room in which they capitulated in [East] Berlin was turned into a museum.
Ya know, a real 5th columnist would be screaming as much anti-Putin, anti-Russian and anti-Kremlin rhetoric as possible - throw people of the trail.. Hmm..
Dear jb6,
Beleive me you exxagarate today Russia's life reality. You lack of real life experience in Russia.
The reality is grimmer then in articles you post. I live in Russia now and have big nostalgia for United States. But I'm born russian. Can yopu imagine what born-american like you will say if you lived here.
Of cause Russia is not the contunuation of Soviet Union as someone here pretend to prove. But she is not free society today ethier. Beter to say Russia is mix of plutocracy and wild west.
There no ideal nowhere.
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