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Why Bush threatens secularism
Washington Times ^ | April 14, 2005 | Julia Duin

Posted on 04/15/2005 5:09:20 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe

The Freedom from Religion Foundation issued a press release Sept. 13, 2001, calling the September 11 attacks by Islamist terrorists "the ultimate faith-based initiative."

The release went on: "Religion is not the answer, it is probably the problem."

And: "Prayer had its chance on September 11 and it failed."

September 11 "should have clinched the idea this is a naturalistic universe," group leader Mr. Barker says. "To stand by and do nothing makes God an accomplice. If He exists, why are we worshipping this monster?"

The fight against God and for abortion rights appear intertwined for Mr. Barker's mother-in-law, Mrs. Gaylor. She was born in 1926 in Tomah, Wis. A biography posted at the group's Web site, www.ffrf.org, says her mother died when she was 2 and her father, a farmer, found religion "embarrassing." She graduated as an English major from University of Wisconsin in 1949 and was married the same year.

After raising four children, Mrs. Gaylor, in 1972, founded the Women's Medical Fund, which has helped 14,000 poor women obtain abortions. In 1975, she published a book "Abortion Is a Blessing."

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: cnim; irreligiousleft; secularism
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Too bad Jefferson views on the Virgina Bill of rights are IRRELEVANT to the federal Constitution, as Chief Justice Rehnquist explained.

Oh, so Jefferson's views on religious freedom are irrelevant? I'm happy to know you think so. It's really no surprise.

181 posted on 04/16/2005 2:03:36 PM PDT by risk
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To: seamole
The question is, how do we heal our country from the liberal cancer?

We can do it without stooping to their level. We can do it by offering clearer arguments for what we think are superior laws and legal enforcements. We really have no choice. It's the fate of democratic governments to face threats from all sides. The only way to win is to be right more often than the other guys.

182 posted on 04/16/2005 2:05:46 PM PDT by risk
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Comment #183 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole
Yes, I think the Christian right's views of the nation's legal foundation is a revisionist shambles of untruths, distortions, uncontextual quotes, and manipulations. It opens itself up to attack on many levels by taking these manipulative tactics. It undermines the opportunity it should be seizing to hold the higher moral ground.
184 posted on 04/16/2005 2:12:01 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
They were irrelevant to the federal Constitution. Jefferson was a federalist, and he understood, as you do not, that different states could go different ways!

Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Samuel Miller, Jan. 23, 1808
Now it's up to YOU to explain why Jefferson was wrong! I agree with him!
185 posted on 04/16/2005 2:14:38 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Now it's up to YOU to explain why Jefferson was wrong! I agree with him!

Why wouldn't Jefferson then go on to say that there should be separation of church and state within the individual states? The two positions of championing states rights and supporting separation of church and state within those states is not mutually exclusive.

Why shouldn't states also uphold religious freedom by separating church and state? Why would you want to live in a state that imposed religious faith on its citizens? It would appear that some of our most contentious states have the strongest language regarding separation of church and state in their own constitutions!

186 posted on 04/16/2005 2:26:42 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
Why wouldn't Jefferson then go on to say that there should be separation of church and state within the individual states?

Because it wasn't up to him. Nor was the federal Constitution, which he had nothing to do with.

Your problem is that you simply ignore history in order to cling to your leftist delusions. The Bill of Rights was not applied to the states until after the civil war. That does not change the fact that the First amendment does not reach beyond forbidding the establishment of a religion. This was the doctrine extended to the states, not the nonexistent principle of complete non-interference in anything religious, which was never the meaning of the First amendment, and so does not apply to the states either.

187 posted on 04/16/2005 2:40:20 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe

You're ignoring the whole reason for the argument in the first place: that religious authority in government, especially held by individual government officials willing to abuse their authority, is a major threat to freedom.


188 posted on 04/16/2005 2:43:03 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
Weren't you the one who pointed out that the Founders were not of one opinion? What matters is not the personal opinion of Jefferson or what he legislated for his own state, but what the Constitution says, which is the Law of the Land.
189 posted on 04/16/2005 2:49:20 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe

If they disagree, so can we. Prove to me that your ideas are good for America.


190 posted on 04/16/2005 2:50:23 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
If they disagreed, then only one of them can be right. They only gave us one Constitution. You may disregard it and lie about what it means, but I will not.
191 posted on 04/16/2005 2:59:18 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe

You'll continue distorting it, of course.


192 posted on 04/16/2005 3:00:20 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk

You are a liar and a slanderer, as well as a commie ACLU stooge and an anti-Christian bigot.


193 posted on 04/16/2005 3:03:15 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: P_A_I
an enforced government neutrality to religion insures "the free exercise thereof".

You have to actually respect religion to enforce the neutrality.

However should they be neutral to methods that work? (*e.g. faith based programs to free people from drug abuse etc.?)

194 posted on 04/16/2005 9:41:52 PM PDT by Terriergal (What is the meaning of life?? Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him for ever.)
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To: risk

You didn't answer my question, man. That's usually an true indication of spiritual deadness, when someone tries to dodge this question.

The answer has eternal consequences. Be careful, my friend, that you deal with the answer.


195 posted on 04/16/2005 11:01:34 PM PDT by righttackle44
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To: righttackle44

Are you trying to give me a religious test for citizenship?


196 posted on 04/16/2005 11:05:41 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
You either did not read my post, or you choose not to read it, but either way, your reply is meaningless rhetoric, at best.

You are living in a world of perception, not reality. Even I addressed several of your 'fears' but you speak as if I did not.

197 posted on 04/16/2005 11:45:09 PM PDT by NewLand (Faith in The Lord trumps all!)
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To: NewLand
Look around yourself. Every day you can exchange views with other, like-minded individuals who will gladly reinforce your world view. Go on line, chant your beliefs, and get your congratulatory replies. Is that satisfying?

The MSM didn't teach me my views. I learned them from sons of the American revolution. I learned them by reading the constitution. I learned them from reading the great minds of the Enlightenment. And I learned them by using common sense: the state has no business supporting religious groups. It especially has no justifiable cause in financing Islamic organizations.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

198 posted on 04/17/2005 12:06:59 AM PDT by risk
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To: risk

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.................


199 posted on 04/17/2005 12:18:20 AM PDT by NewLand (Faith in The Lord trumps all!)
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To: Terriergal
Perhaps they have finally realized that an enforced government neutrality to religion insures "the free exercise thereof".

You have to actually respect religion to enforce the neutrality.

Yes indeed, - if legislators support the Constitution they will insure the free exercise of religion. Urging them to write law based on the establishments of religion defeats that neutrality.

However should they be neutral to methods that work? (*e.g. faith based programs to free people from drug abuse etc.?)

Giving government money to religious organizations will only corrupt them, - bet on it. 194

200 posted on 04/17/2005 10:11:49 AM PDT by P_A_I
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