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To: sully777

Well, I should clarify: all those who don't accept Christ are still under the Law. (So go get circumcised, you heathen!) They also must follow the Law perfectly, in thought, word, and deed throughout their entire life.

Christians, in contrast, have an addendum to the contract -- all those that accept Christ don't have to follow the dietary, et al, portions of the law relating to being cleansed. They probably should follow the rest (the more substantive stuff) --- but if the mess up, they will be forgiven.

While this sounds easy, the Christians must also follow the Holy Spirit --- what I call the gut feeling of right and wrong --- which is sometimes quite a bit harder than the Law.

The "license-to-sin" argument to which you allude is old. Back in the early church --- I think in Ephisus (some port town) --- the Christians took their forgiveness as an excuse to have orgies at church. (I believe they were called "gnostics," but I could be confusing them with other heretics.)

That was frowned upon by the apostles.

And explained by Paul --- that, as a Christian one must strive to NOT to sin. You will fail. So repent and try again. With God's help you will do better.

And with the Holy Spirit's help you will WANT to do better, which is the most important part. I do not want to sin. It is a slap in the face of Christ, disrespectful of His sacrifice. It is another thorn on His crown. It is this inner change that makes me a better person than I was than before I was a Christian.


418 posted on 04/14/2005 3:18:20 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan
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To: MeanWestTexan

"...all those who don't accept Christ are still under the Law."

What do you call a christian that obeys the Law that Chirst paid the penalty for? Unchristian? That seems pretty odd and judgmental.



"So go get circumcised, you heathen!"


I know you said that in jest. To be honestt, I was circumcised though I was born into an agnostic family (seems the medical establishment nipped all the guys back in the day because uncircumcised males have this problem with schmegma that may cause serious health problems. That is until some homosexuals began suing the hospitals). Dr. Drew from Loveline believes that uncircumcision is a root cause of much sexual problems and disease, and actually suggests adult males consider circumcision, though it is not a minor surgical procedure. I don't think Dr. Drew is anything but an agnostic or atheist. I know Adam Carolla is an atheist.


"While this sounds easy, the Christians must also follow the Holy Spirit --- what I call the gut feeling of right and wrong --- which is sometimes quite a bit harder than the Law."


A gut feeling of right or wrong. Gut feeling? Like the feeling you get when you want to buy onion rings, you buy them, and your gut tells you it was wrong. Some call that gas.

Seems that simple people would just look up the law. "Should I lay with my neighbor's dog? Says here in Leviticus that I shouldn't. But I'm not under that law...and I'm under grace." Boom. Instant perv but a saved perv? It has to be more complicated than a gut feeling. That leaves much room for interpretation.


"...as a Christian one must strive to NOT to sin. You will fail. So repent and try again. With God's help you will do better..."

Define sin. A standard pocket dictionary in front of me says that sin is breaking the law. Actually, it says willful breaking of the law, which means that the lawbreaker knows the law and reasons he will break it.

Repent? What is the definition of repent? Dictionary says it is to feel sorrow, feel negligent about responsibility, and change your mind. Change demands not doing the sin. Sin, as we learned from the dictionary, is breaking law. Therefore, changing your mind to not sin means obeying. Obeying what? Law or gut feelings which could easily pass (forgive me) for gas, or subconscious delusion? Seems that the dictionary says you should obey the law. But if you obey the law are you are law keeper, or a legalist. If I refuse to deal drugs, I suppose I'm being a legalist.


It seems to me, as an outsider looking into your world, that you want to obey God and Christ as a christian. But you don't want to obey everything which you deposit as "the law done away." So you say Christ did away with the Law, which you don't really mean, because if Christ did away with the Law, then this all a moot exercise in circle jerking=no law=no need for savior=no savior=nothingness. And I know from your posted response, that you don't mean that.

So what are the exact laws you don't want to be under? You seem to gravitate toward dietary laws. I assume you love monkey brains, who doesn't? Or blowfish? Octapus fried in its ink? Horse bladder? Pigs feet? Frogs legs? Slugs? Balls of a rhino? Fried cat meat in moo goo gai pan? Does God say its wrong? From a scientific standpoint, are the dietary laws smart or absolutely stupid. Because if God made these laws and then says they're stupid, that makes God look foolish, or better still God looks like John Kerry, "I said it, then I took it back."

You mention cleaning laws. Why don't you want to be clean? Or are you talking about showing yourself to the priest if you have a pussing boil? Perhaps you don't like the one about remaining in a segragated quarentee because you have a highly contageous disease? Oh wait, you want to have sex when you are or your wife is in menses. Well, I guess breaking these laws could cause problems and diseases down the road that you may or may not blame God for allowing. Seems like God is covering all the bases, like anyone writing up a good contract. I guess it's like an ancient national health plan. But it seems like these laws are still taught today in medical schools too. Not sure where you're driving at.

Votives, offerings, and let's see... new moons, sabbath day, and days like Purum, Yom Kippur, Succouth, and Rosh Hoshanah. Can't keep those days because they are old covenant? Since you are not under the Law, I assume you don't keep Easter, Christmas, or St John the Baptist Day either? It's all unnecessary for salvation. I bet you work every day of the week and never attend church. Because God's not interested in false pretenses of religion. It's what is in the heart that counts. Church is for those pretentious altar boys and women trying to look their best. It's all a glamour show and wannabe priests.


Why do we need anything, particularly priests, popes, or even this Baptist pastor when God is in our hearts and everywhere. And why continue the charade of obedience if the Law is done away. Seems hypocritical and destructive to our delicate senses. Which gets back to my other post. No law=no savior=no need to live according to a particular religion=no nothing.

Unless we should obey. I mean think about it, if we are required to obey the law we broke and were pardon from breaking (prisoners call this reformed) then this whole salvation idea makes more logical sense.

Either way, the law in the Bible, as it is written, is the mind of God. If we figured out that God exists then all we must figure is if the mind of God should be obeyed or ignored. Seems like a simple plug in.


520 posted on 04/14/2005 7:02:49 PM PDT by sully777 (It's like my momma always said, "Two wrongs don't make a right but two Wrights make an airplane.")
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To: MeanWestTexan
Christians, in contrast, have an addendum to the contract --

UMmm...

not exactly, for that OLD contract was BROKEN - there's NOTHING tht can be added to or taken away from it.



NIV Galatians 3:11-19
 11.  Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
 12.  The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
 13.  Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
 14.  He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
 15.  Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case.
 16.  The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"  meaning one person, who is Christ.
 17.  What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
 18.  For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
 19.  What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.

628 posted on 04/15/2005 6:01:52 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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