Schiavo Stokes Europe Euthanasia Debate

Las Vegas Sun ^ | April 10, 2005 at 23:21:20 PDT | DANICA KIRKA ASSOCIATED PRESS

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

VIENNA, Austria (AP) - Johann Gross survived three years of Nazi laboratory experiments under an extermination program that called for snuffing out "worthless lives."

That trauma shapes the Austrian's view of Terri Schiavo's death.

"No people in the world have the right to kill another. It's murder," said Gross, 75, while visiting an exhibit on wartime experiments at a Vienna psychiatric hospital. "It's the same as the Nazis did."

Gross' reaction may seem extreme, but there are many in Austria and Germany whose attitudes toward euthanasia are clouded by Hitler's horrors. Until recently, even talking about it was difficult because it forced people to look into their dark history.

But since Schiavo's death March 31, after courts ordered her feeding tube removed, the ethics of euthanasia have become a hot topic in Austria and Germany. Videotape showing Schiavo in her hospital bed, in what was described as a vegetative state, led TV newscasts for days.

In Europe, the Netherlands permits euthanizing terminally ill patients with no hope of recovery, suffer unbearable pain and ask to die; Belgium has also legalized euthanasia under strict conditions. But it was the legal battle over Schiavo that forced many Germans and Austrians to consider the issue as never before.

"When you have a face, a picture - the life of one man or a woman in this case ... it's easier for people to have a debate on a special case versus an abstract problem," said Josef Pumberger, the deputy editor of Austria's Roman Catholic news agency, Kathpress. "It makes it more real."

Debate on these issues had begun in Austria and Germany before the Schiavo case, but the publicity surrounding it energized the discussions.

Neither Austria nor Germany is considering euthanasia laws, but both are wrestling with the concept of living wills, which direct doctors on how to treat patients who can no longer speak for themselves.

In Germany, the ruling Social Democrats, led by Justice Minister Brigitte Zypries, want to strengthen the rights of patients with living wills, while a parliamentary commission wants to limit them and allow in some cases for families and doctors to overrule them.

In predominantly Roman Catholic Austria, euthanasia is punishable as a crime. But how much treatment a suffering person receives is often left to the doctors and is rarely discussed openly, said Peter Kampits, dean of the philosophy and education department at the University of Vienna.

"There is a very dark side of this issue," said Kampits, who chairs a city public health committee on medical ethics.

Panel member Dr. Martin Salzer argues that 60 years after World War II, it is time to debate a doctor-assisted suicide law similar to Oregon's. But he finds Schiavo's treatment unacceptable because she left no written instructions.

"It is dangerous all over the world," Salzer said. "If you could do it once, there is a danger it could be done 10,000 times."

Some of the survivors of the Nazi campaigns have told Dr. Klaus Mihacek, an expert on post-traumatic stress syndrome, that the Schiavo case has raised uncomfortable memories.

About 75,000 people across Europe, including 5,000 children, were subjected to experiments and killed because they had physical or mental handicaps, were social misfits or otherwise failed to meet the Nazis' master-race criteria.

The survivors "feel no one should play the role of God," said Mihacek. "They know they were lucky to survive."

With the approaching 60th anniversary of the end of the war, the experiments on children are being remembered in two exhibits in Vienna. Gross will take part in a ceremony later this month honoring 400 children slain by the Nazis at a city clinic.

Gross was sent to the Spiegelgrund clinic as a child because he was judged asocial and because his father was missing a hand. He said he was given injections into his feet that made it impossible for him to move for weeks unless he crawled.

The ceremony will mark the day three years ago that Vienna's government finally buried the brains of children killed by injection, medical experimentation or starvation at Spiegelgrund. The organs had been preserved during the war for medical research.

"People should remember the time and not forget it," Gross said. "We should fight that these kind of people never come again."

---

Associated Press Writer Matt Surman in Berlin contributed to this report.

--

[little jeremiah]

Moral Absolutes Ping.

An odd article; this figure seems low, compared to that other article I pinged out today*:

About 75,000 people across Europe, including 5,000 children, were subjected to experiments and killed because they had physical or mental handicaps, were social misfits or otherwise failed to meet the Nazis' master-race criteria.

This statement bears repeating:

"It is dangerous all over the world," Salzer said. "If you could do it once, there is a danger it could be done 10,000 times."

Let me know if you want on/off this ping list.

*Euthanasia, Medical Science, and the Road to Genocide http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1380989/posts

Sorry about it not being a link; if I make things bold or italics, I can't do links. I be genetically inferior.

[FairOpinion]

Terri PING

[FairOpinion]

"Panel member Dr. Martin Salzer argues that 60 years after World War II, it is time to debate a doctor-assisted suicide law similar to Oregon's. But he finds Schiavo's treatment unacceptable because she left no written instructions.

"It is dangerous all over the world," Salzer said. "If you could do it once, there is a danger it could be done 10,000 times."

=====

Exactly.

[onedoug]

Agreed.

Judge Greer should be arrested and bound over for trial in the murder of Terri Schindler.

Yes. Even here, in yet America.

[GloriaJane]

"Judge Greer should be arrested and bound over for trial in the murder of Terri Schindler."

I agree on that! And I also think judge greer should be charged with every Florida Law and Federal Law he broke in his rush to murder Terri! From what I've seen in some of the other posts on here, he broke a lot.

[backhoe]

Useless Eaters vs The Death Cult

[ClancyJ]

You are so cute - even though you be genetically inferior.
You do spell well however.

Please add me to the ping list.

[little jeremiah]

I'll add your name.

Spelling is something you either have or don't have. It can't be learned; although people can learn to spell better, it's kind of like carrying a tune. You either can or can't.

It's one of my very few skills. I can also carry a tune.

;-)

Unfortunately not very cute.

[NoControllingLegalAuthority]

Spelling is something you either have or don't have. It can't be learned

Boy, I wish I could have used that argument back in my elementary school days.

They used to have something called "school" in which "teachers" who had learned to spell would teach children proper spelling. This concept was based upon the quaint idea that young people have to learn a number of skills to become productive citizens. One of the skills of value to civilized society is for an adult to have the ability to communicate in writing.

Those skills are not required in primitive societies of nomadic hunters or goat herders...apparently the modern direction of American societal evolution.

I also recall lessons in how to count and compute and give change.

Of course this was back in the days when young people were expected to apply themselves to learn skills they would need later in life.

That was back in "them ol' timey days" when the average graduate of the eighth grade had learned better communication skills than today's college graduate.

[little jeremiah]

Thanks for the sarcasm. What I meant was that, from my various readings as well as experience homeschooling various kids, is that some people have a propensity for spelling, and others just don't. Of course, those without the propensity can still learn how to spell, but often have difficulty with it.

OTOH, those with the natural talent for spelling don't have to work at it all. It comes naturally. I think it's because once a word is read a few times, their brains naturally remember how to spell it.

Kind of like my example about carrying a tune. Although it's not a perfect analogy - those who can't carry tunes can get better, but those who can carry tunes practically never have difficulty. Of course, the natural ability still requires work to achieve better results.

I didn't mean that a natural speller never needs to read, write or try at all!

I have two children, both extrememly intelligent. One is a natural speller, the other one is not.

[Victor]

I can carry a tune...and spell well. I think you're on to something.

Pretty cute, too....

[Diogenesis]

Pinellas county, Florida subhuman murderer uncertified Judgenfuhrer Greer:
"First, we in Florida have the Judical right to torture and exterminateany undesireable by dehydration.
Second, there are some people who are now in Florida who were just born victims. We will determine "who".
Third, we in Florida are exempt from ALL rules and law.
I did not even take the oath of office.
The US Constitution - I ignored it.
18 USC Section 1505 - I ignored it.
Title 2 of the US code - I ignored it.
Florida Statute 765.309 which prevents mercy killing and assisted suicide - I ignored it.
Florida Statute 744.3215 which requires that incapacitated people cannot be deprived of food and water - I ignored it.
Florida Statute 765.404, which says that clear and convincing evidence of the ward's intent for medical treatment must be established - I ignored it..
Florida's Department of Children and Families nearly 90 allegations?
Screw them, too.
We in Florida conspired to torture and execute Terri and torture her parents to celebrate Holocaust Remembrance Month.
So what are you --and the gonadless pussies in Congress-- dare gonna do about it? Nothing."

[syriacus]

Perhaps Greer should be tried in an international court for his crime against humanity. (Maybe "crimes against humanity," if he's ordered anyone else's starvation).

Please place me on your Euthanasia, Medical Science, and the Road to Genocide ping list.

I'm almost 60 now, but in the old days I was a natural speller and could carry a tune. I lost the ability to carry a tune a few decades ago. My spelling is getting worse year by year.

My much brighter older brother was a poor speller, yet graduated from Princeton in 3 years.

[madprof98]

Gross' reaction may seem extreme, but there are many in Austria and Germany whose attitudes toward euthanasia are clouded by Hitler's horrors.

Never a bias in AP accounts, is there?

[shhrubbery!]

ohann Gross survived three years of Nazi laboratory experiments under an extermination program that called for snuffing out "worthless lives...
"It's murder," said Gross, 75, while visiting an exhibit on wartime experiments at a Vienna psychiatric hospital. "It's the same as the Nazis did."

I saw Peter Beinart go stark raving mad when Pat Buchanan tried to note the Nazi analogy to the Schiavo case. Beinart shouted down Buchanan before he could even get the thought out of his mouth.

Libs get hysterical when anyone sees something Nazi-ish about snuffing out the lives of the disabled or the unborn. "You have no right to make that analogy" they shriek.

I wonder if it's OK with libs when actual survivors of the Nazis, such as Mr. Gross, make the Nazi analogy re Terri Schiavo.

Probably not.

[TigersEye]

Abortionists in this country have killed over 45 million Americans. Adolf and company were pikers, they never murdered anywhere near that many people. I guess that's why their hero is "Uncle Joe" Stalin.

[TigersEye]

Gross' reaction may seem extreme, (to abortionists and suicide doctors) but there are many in Austria and Germany whose attitudes toward euthanasia are clouded by Hitler's horrors. (Hey, just because Hitler did it doesn't mean it's bad!)

[little jeremiah]

You may note that I have never and will never post my picture on FR...

:-)

[little jeremiah]

My ping list covers various aspects of moral absolutes, obviously not all, or I would be apinging all day long. Things that spark my interest, that I consider culturally significant, things that are seriously contributing to the screaming nosedive of societal decay, and so on.

I don't cover homosexual issues (I have another pinglist for that) or abortion, as there are a couple of other lists for that. The topics you mentioned are definitely hot issues.

I'll add your name, and you can always ping me when/if you want off.

M(y spelling's getting a little worse, too, although the tune carrying still is active....)