Patriotic, Peaceful Muslims - (can this be genuine?..or is it a ploy?)

HUMAN EVENTS ONLINE.COM ^ | APRIL 7, 2005 | ROBERT SPENCER

[CHARLITE]

A new group of American Muslims has declared itself committed to moderation, patriotism, and peaceful coexistence with non-Muslims. It's called the Center for Islamic Pluralism, an organization made up of both American-born and immigrant Muslims, lifelong Muslims and converts. If this organization succeeds in being what it has set out to be, it will fill a vacuum many Americans have felt keenly since 9/11: it will be a real counterweight in the Islamic community to jihadist radicalism and fanaticism.

In its inaugural press release the CIP declared its intention to "promote moderate Islam in the U.S. and globally; educate the American public, media, and government about moderate Islam; oppose the influence of militant Islam in the United States and abroad; [and] promote authentic and constructive interfaith dialogue between Muslims and adherents of other faiths."

"We define 'moderate Islam' in the American context," the initial press release continued, "as an Islam that finds its proper and equal place as one among the many religions represented in America, with rights neither greater nor lesser than any other…. The CIP emphasizes pluralism to signal that it believes not in the tolerance of non-Muslims, but in their true acceptance."

The CIP's executive director, the Muslim convert and journalist Stephen Suleyman Schwartz, explained that "dialogue is the foundation of our activity."

If a group like the CIP cannot gain a wide following among Muslims in America, the implication for the actual sentiments and loyalties of American Muslims are ominous. But if the CIP doesn't follow through on its commitment to dialogue, its success is in doubt and its utility suspect. Accordingly, it is devoutly to be wished that the organization clear up a few important matters at the outset.

For instance, Schwartz declares that the "Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad…command us to moderation; we can do no less than to fulfill these high responsibilities in that spirit." This is in line with an observation by his fellow CIP founder, Ahmed Subhy Mansour, who asserts that "total freedom of opinion is a principle that was assured by Islam since it emerged, and applied by Muhammad." These statements suggest that if Muslims return to true adherence to the Koran and Muhammad's example, violent jihadist Islam will disappear.

However, the same day that the CIP issued its statement, an Al-Qaeda group in Iraq declared that "terrorizing enemies of Allah is our faith and religion, which is taught to us by our Qur'an." And the same day the Saudi Wahhabis, whom the CIP is determined to oppose, touted Muhammad as "the perfect role model in all situations." Of course, there are hundreds of contemporary examples of jihad terrorists pointing to the Qur'an and the example of Muhammad to justify violence.

So how does the CIP intend to distinguish its Muhammad from the Wahhabi version? How will the organization respond to jihad terrorists when they invoke Muhammad and the Koran? This is an all-important question, for on its answer will hang or fall the mission of the CIP itself: if the group cannot convince Muslims to follow it, rejecting jihadist theology, it will have failed. But it cannot do any such convincing without a coherent Islamic theology that not only rivals the jihadist version, but refutes it.

Schwartz has in the past decried those who "demand a revision of the Muslim holy book, Qur'an," and has asserted that "Islam needs no Reformation, merely to return to its long-established tradition: pluralistic, spiritual, and committed to the protection and refinement of its civilizational heritage." That makes all the more urgent a clear delineation of its theological stance as distinct from that of the jihadists who use the same sources so effectively.

Questions like these have led one of the seven current members of the CIP, Tashbih Sayyid, publisher of Muslim World Today, to reconsider his role in the organization. Sayyid explained to me: "If Schwartz believes that there is nothing wrong with Muslim theology, I cannot be part of this group….My whole life is devoted to one end: to make the Muslims understand that their theology needs to be reformed and reinterpreted. Anybody who thinks that there's nothing wrong with their theology is either a blind person or an apologist."

Sayyid continued: "There are many things in Muslim Scripture that need to be reshaped and reframed and reinterpreted, so that they cannot be used by terrorists to justify homicide bombings and honor killings."

If the CIP is to fulfill its great promise, it will face this great necessity honestly, and act accordingly.

Mr. Spencer is director of Jihad Watch and author of Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West (Regnery -- a HUMAN EVENTS sister company) and Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World's Fastest Growing Faith (Encounter); and editor of The Myth of Islamic Tolerance (Prometheus).

[DustyMoment]

There is an obvious difference between religions don't you think?

Excellent post!! Great points.

[Brooklyn Kid]

"The "good" doctor is duplicitous at best."

Really? Have you heard him speak? Read his papers?
Since I doubt very much you have, I'd say this sounds like another knee-jerk reaction/characterization of anyone muslim.

[American in Israel]

Excuse me, but you did not seem to understand my post. I pointed out the Muslim scriptural belief that they must slaughter all the Jews to the last man before the Judgment day. The "good" doctor did not mention that did he? He cannot argue that point. You see, if you claim to be a Muslim, you must follow the clearly written Muslim scriptures, or you simply are Not Muslim. The "good" doctor is yanking your chain and you are too naive to understand that. You would rather attack your fellow country man that is warning you, than listen to the truth.

You say I have a knee-jerk reaction to Islam, but do you live with exploding buses? Machine gun attacks on your freeways daily? Muslims that step out of the crowd and cut some ladys throat from ear to ear for glory? How about Exploding coffee shops and Pizza parlors?

I think you are a clueless, obnoxious sheeple. I live with terrorism daily dipstick. Perhaps you can get away with your comments to some fellow American that lives in safety like you, but not with me. I know what I am talking about. I can tell the difference between a mortar, tank round, car bomb or belt bomb by the sound.

If you cannot see this guy is pulling your chain, how about you just shut up and listen for a bit before you judge people who live in a city with 200,000+ beligerant, violent fundementalist Musilms. I got twenty mosques in my neighborhood. You have ANY? Just who is the knee-jerk reactionist and who has actual experience on the subject?

I REPEAT, the Muslim Holy Scripture's demand the complete subjugation of the world under the sword of Islam, and the complete extermination of Jews. Who gives a rip if the Jews owned Jerusalem, if they are all dead by the Islamic Sword. This guy is arguing a moot point in english in the American Newspapers to shield the real Islam from "can't we all just get along" KNEE JERK LIBERALS. Islam means submission in Arabic, not peace.

[American in Israel]

Here, ask this Muslim about it;

[American in Israel]

[American in Israel]

Ok, how about this guy with a Koran in his hand?

This guy lives within 50 miles of my house. Do you think this MUSLIM thinks Islam is a religion of Peace? Is it knee-jerk to think he is dangerous or is it just simple observation?

[American in Israel]

Can you show me how the "good" Doctor will explain these scripture right out of the Koran?:

- Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12).

- If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39). He is to be told, "the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat of Hell-fire" (Sura 9:81).

- A Muslim must "fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him" (Sura 22:78)

- Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123).

- Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).

- A Muslim should "enjoy the good things" he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).

- A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a "just cause" (Sura 6:152).

- Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).
Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).

- Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

- Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)

- Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)

- I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)

- They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)

- Know that paradise is under the shades of swords. Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 4 p55


You are a sheep willing to vote with a pack of wolves on "what's for dinner?"

[Brooklyn Kid]

Excuse me, but I understood your post just fine.
That was One(1) article about a specific subject, it was not the Dr's lifework. In fact it was written by someone else about the Dr. A Jew, I believe.
If you'd like to see what else he's written, do some research. But as I pointed out earlier, ""his mission: to combat the growing tide of Islamic political radicalization by teaching what the Quran actually says – not how the Islamic holy text is interpreted by imams."

Living in Israel doesn't give you a pass to be bigotted against ALL muslims any more than if you lived in a high crime, drug-infested neighborhood in Harlem and made these kinds of statements about ALL blacks.

If this is what's happened to you living there, then I'd say, get out. If you can't differentiate between Palestinian terrorists and a PhD from Guyana trying to fight back against muslim radicals, you've got serious problems.

[Skywalk]

I have NEVER said there wasn't a difference between religions.

One can look at aggregates and condemn them, I'm no fan of Islam as a world cultural force. But that doesn't mean every single Muslim in the world views things the same way. That's just ridiculous. My ex lived and worked in the Gambia, and most of them practice a much more moderate form of Islam(including drinking beer. Now, they aren't fond of atheists, but they don't go around slaughtering 'infidels' either. The amount of fundamentalist extremists, despite the desperate poverty there, is quite small.

That's just one example. It is patently absurd, in relation to THIS THREAD(about exceptional Muslims,) to assert that 100 percent of all of a given religion or group are duplicitous and evil terrorists. Are there more in Islam? Sure. I never disputed that. BUt to claim that there can't be any good ones or any moderate organizations flies in the face of the actual facts.

I'm very pro-Israel, by the way, please don't lecture me as if I'm a moral equivalency type. But we're never going to get MORE of these moderates standing up for right if even their brave efforts are spat upon because we must condemn ALL Muslims.

[Skywalk]

I haven't read the Old Testament or the Koran? LOL

You don't know who I am.

I converted to Judaism when I was 13. I'm agnostic now, but that doesn't mean I don't have an affinity for Jews and Judaism(as CURRENTLY practiced.)

If you want to make a COUNT, then sure, the Koran is probably more immoral. But it's not as if the Old Testament isn't filled with tales of slaughter, genocide and indiscriminate murder and unjust punishment of the many for the sins of the few(collective punishment.) You can justify it all you want, indeed I've heard the hollow rationalizations of Yahweh's exortations to slaughter but a consistent and reasonable man will see through them. Just admit that Judaism is not what it used to be and that it's BETTER for it.

[ArmyTeach]

"...you should have said "given the acts of violence and terrorism over the last 1400 years".

Quite right on all counts. I was just thinking about the events in my own personal memory.
I have a very short list of places I really want to visit and Isreal is at the top.

[ArmyTeach]

"...you should have said "given the acts of violence and terrorism over the last 1400 years".

Quite right on all counts. I was just thinking about the events in my own personal memory.
I have a very short list of places I really want to visit and Isreal is at the top.

[sheik yerbouty]

All ten of them..

[sheik yerbouty]

The only Muslims, who on mass, protested against the attack on America on 9/11 were Persians. The Arab Muslims' silence was deafening, but for their dancing..

[Torie]

And here we have a lone voice whose motives are being trashed. Just the ticket, no, juat what you want, no, something simple and Manichean, no?

[sheik yerbouty]

Why don't we see if they are really serious. You can bet your life on it if you choose. I won't.

[American in Israel]

Judaism is not what it used to be and is far worse for it. The tales of indiscriminate slaugher are like the tales of indiscriminate slaughter today between Palestine and the Jews. The Palestinians do the indiscriminate slaughter and the Jews get the blame.

There is only one story that Shows that God said take a certain tribe and wipe them out to a man, woman, child, goat and alley cat. God said do that or they will be a thorn in your side for the rest of history. The Jews did not do that, and the Palestinians claim that heritage.

When you are ordered to kill a serial killer because if you do not he will continue to kill, and you in your more liberal vision do not, it is not a wise decision.

History has justified God's position.

The Koran however demands that the Islamics wipe out to a man, woman and child, and steal the cattle and alley cats of everyone that is not their flavor of Islam. When the smoke clears there will be one Muslim of one particular flavor standing on a heap of bodies saying "I won" come back God.

I can find few books so diametrically opposed as the Tanach and the Koran. I of course being a Christian think the "new" testament is just a continuation of the Tanach. I also pick Rabbi Yeshua, or Jesus in english, as the Messiah. His teachings quite well explain things in more modern terms than the Stone Age history of mankind. While you may object to the terms of stone age understandings of reality, perhaps you should look at some more modern perspective some time. Do not forget the context of the documents. If you read old english it is easy to remember that these books are very old, but if you read in modern english it is very easy to forget that these books are written in a context that radically changes how you should try and understand them.

For example the command to stone a rapist to death. In our modern society, we let them run free to rape again. Execution is far better in my opinion. However when we do kill someone, we do it in a little private box, nothing but a handful of witnesses. Far better to make the people of the town kill the killer themselves. Not only is it a heck of a deterrent to the next wannabe rapist, it would keep people like Teri alive.

No I do not know who you are, I can just see you do not have understanding. Now I understand you better. That helps communication. I can also understand why you would feel agnostic after a bout with Rabbinical Judaism. There is so much man mixed in, it is hard to see the God in it anymore. But before you think I am just a Christian flamer, let me say the same is true of the modern orthodox Christian Church.

Sad, isn't it.

But God warned that if anyone wants to find him, seek him early in life and they just may. The hidden clue is you must seek God Himself, not God through others search.

You can find God in Judaism and in Christianity, you will not anywhere else. That is my personal observation, having found Him.

Blessings, don't give up the search yet. It is not over yet.

[American in Israel]

Well said, and reasoned response. I tend to agree with you on the face of it. But my point is this. When the fundamental tennants of a religion is murder, and slaughter and looting and slavery, why would a good man join that religion? It is one thing to be a pirate for booty, quite another to make your religion piracy.

I have met many a moderate muslim, and indeed have muslim friends. I view them all as ticking time bombs and know as they do that if the conversation goes certain places, our friendship is ended.

For example. If a Muslim friend (over here, not so much in America) asks me to convert I must say I am thinking about it. I cannot say No, I will never. If I say I am thinking about it, they are commanded by the Koran that there is grace for me, I may be allowed more time to think. If I say No, then they are commanded by the Koran to kill and or torture me.

So they do not ask, and I do not answer, and we get along just fine.

They also do not ask me to visit their house in Ramallah because they would be responsible for my life under Middle Eastern hospitality morals. As an American I have a cash bounty on my head to whoever would kill me as a terrorist and my passport is also worth $10,000 cash to terrorist groups. As I have to use an American Passport to bypass the Israeli side of the checkpoints, (Jews are not allowed), and need it to get into Ramallah and show it on the Palestinian Side, I would be drawing a bullseye on my chest.

If they ask me to visit them in Ramallah, I know that my life means nothing to them, or perhaps a lot, just not in the right way.

This is my relationship with Muslims in the Middle East. Admittedly I am in a hot zone of Jihad, but you know what, America is a bunch of frogs in a slowly heating bowl of water. It is a warm zone now, and instead of sleeping, you might just want to start thinking about Islam and Jihad in a very real way before you are the main course of dinner.

Yes it is not fun to have these thoughts in the back of my mind when dealing with Islamics, but I KNOW the Koran, I have studied Islam. I have also survived living in a country that has terrorist attacks every day of the week for years and years.

The main point is this, Islam is evil to the core, and birds of a feather flock together. If a man is a Muslim, he is not necessarily a murderer, just a wannabe. In my book, wannabe is enough for me to keep one eye open, and to never trust you.

But I am a survivor type, I always have one eye open. It comes from living in some of the real armpits of the world in my lifetime. A street urchin from the back alleys has much better survival skills than a valley girl raised in the Mall.

I have no idea where you come from, I come from the alleys...

[American in Israel]

I understand what you are saying trust me, but you are missing my point. Let me try again in a different way.

""his mission: to combat the growing tide of Islamic political radicalization by teaching what the Quran actually says – not how the Islamic holy text is interpreted by imams."

The problem I have with the "good" Doctor is this:

Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515 “The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.”

This is a command to torture captives for information and kill them by Mohammad himself. It is only one of hundreds of like commands. I chose only one to not blur the point.

THE POINT IS THIS: It is not a matter of interpretation, it is plain text. It is impossible to interpret it any way other than torture and murder. The simple fact that the "good" Doctor knows the Koran good enough to argue with the Imams and does not seem to understand that it is not a matter of interpretation but is the command of Mohammad himself for Jihad means the "good" Doctor is not "good" but is a very crafty, evil propagandist that is offering you false hope, as a lie to lull you to sleep as Islam moves more forward troops into your back yard.

The Dr is clearly yanking your chain, knowing that you do not know the Koran and do not see he is making a fool of you.

Living in Israel doesn't give you a pass to be bigotted against ALL muslims any more than if you lived in a high crime, drug-infested neighborhood in Harlem and made these kinds of statements about ALL blacks.

Well, you may not understand this, but I have muslim friends. They are very dangerous friends, but they are friends non-the-less. You also may not understand that to warn you that the guy standing next to you is a killer and is raping your wife does not make me a bigot if his skin color happens to be different than mine. What if his skin color is the same as mine? Makes the Bigotry charge a bit harder to sling. But like a monkey slinging poop at the zoo, slinging poop is easy and does not take much understanding.

If this is what's happened to you living there, then I'd say, get out.

It isn't what has happened to me, but I am sure you are disappointed about it.

If you can't differentiate between Palestinian terrorists and a PhD from Guyana trying to fight back against muslim radicals, you've got serious problems.

This is the funny thing, I not only can tell the difference, but I can tell you his motives, and his doctrine, and his goal. I can even tell you his position in the Jihad vs the position and goal, motives and doctrine of a Palestinian Terrorist. I can even discuss at length his doctrinal differences, the differences in their goals and where the goals and doctrines meet in the common goal of Jihad.

You haven't a clue of any of that. To you all Muslims look the same. So I suggest you are the one with the serious problem, and promise you that, God willing, you will live long enough to learn the hard way.

You my friend are the one with a serious problem, and it is growing daily right in your back yard. Not only do you not know it, but you insult and revile your neighbor who is trying to warn you.

Pity that.