U.S. Gay Catholics Say 'No Sex' Doctrine Tough to Follow

Reuters ^ | April 7, 2005 | Adam Tanner

[Clint N. Suhks]

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Peter Novak has practiced Catholicism his whole life, starting as an altar boy and then studying for seven years toward becoming a priest.

Yet in recent months, the 39-year-old gay man, who did not complete his seminary studies, has been thinking about leaving the church because of the legacy of Pope John Paul's stance on homosexuality.

"It's not an easy life to do that, to want to maintain your identity as Catholic and gay," said Novak, who married his partner in San Francisco last year.

"The church came out very much opposed to gay marriage and I would say that was part of it," he said, explaining why he stopped going to Mass regularly more than a year ago. "It has challenged my ability to feel comfortable in the church."

Under Pope John Paul, the Vatican preached that gays should be treated with compassion but made clear it absolutely opposed gay sex and called homosexuality a disorder. The Pope referred to gay marriage as an "ideology of evil."

The Pope "would be very compassionate to the gay person," said Fr. Donald Cozzens, former president-rector of Saint Mary Catholic Seminary in Cleveland. Yet he would "require of them what he feels the Gospel requires of all of God's people, which is if you are not married, you do not have an active sexual life, whether within a committed relationship or not."

Many gay American Catholics ignore such teachings, as do heterosexuals who skirt church rules against birth control.

In areas such as San Francisco's Castro Street, a center of gay life, Catholic churches perform a delicate balancing act.

In front of the Most Holy Redeemer Church two blocks away, a billboard shows well-built male models urging gay men to telephone.

"We provide the teachings of the church with the understanding that people will make their own choices," said Michael Greenwell, a priest from the Carmelite Order.

GAY CATHOLICS AT PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH

DignityUSA, a group of gay Catholics, conducts its own services, often with former priests. After a 1986 Vatican letter denounced homosexuality as "an objective disorder," U.S. Catholic churches barred group meetings on their property.

So in San Francisco, Dignity meets weekly at a Presbyterian church.

Catholic teachings on homosexuality may not have changed much under John Paul, but his papacy coincided with the gay rights movements, AIDS and priest sex scandals highlighting issues related to homosexual clergymen.

The Pope also strongly opposed gay marriage, discussing it in his last annual address in January and calling it in his last book published in February "a new ideology of evil," which incensed many gays.

"The clock has been turned back during this papacy for gay people," said Jeff Stone, a DignityUSA member in New York.

In San Francisco, Catholics played key roles during last year's marriage of more than 4,000 same sex couples.

Mayor Gavin Newsom, a Catholic, ignited the issue by allowing the weddings until they were barred by the California Supreme Court. Then, just last month, a Catholic judge ruled California's ban on homosexual marriage unconstitutional.

Both traditionalists and reformers seem to agree the Vatican is unlikely to make changes toward gays under the next Pope.

"I don't think the teaching can or will change," said Mark Brumley, president of St. Ignatius Press, the largest U.S. Catholic publisher.

"Thanks to the legacy of John Paul II, we are going to see a much more energetic and persuasive presentation of the truth of that teaching about human sexuality," he said. "I think the next Pope will build on what John Paul II has done."

[MEGoody]

"I'm a Jew, I don't follow the New Testament!"

Then why did you say 'the bible doesn't address female homosexuality'? It most certainly does.

Jews do not typical describe their holy scriptures as 'the bible.' Not sure why your original post used that term.

[Bald Eagle777]

Lindisfarne immediately comes to mind.

June 8, 793 • Vikings Looted Lindisfarne
http://chi.gospelcom.net/DAILYF/2002/06/daily-06-08-2002.shtml
--
http://itsa.ucsf.edu/~snlrc/britannia/lindisfarne/lindisfarne.html

"Alcuin, who was at the court of Charlemagne and a leader of the Carolingian Renaissance, it was inconceivable that ships could suddenly appear from over the horizon."
--
http://www.cdli.ca/CITE/v_age.htm
"The same year the heathens arrived from the north to Brittany with a fleet of ships. They were like stinging wasps, and they spread in all directions like horrible wolves, wrecking, robbing, shattering and killing not only animals but also priests, monks and nuns. They came to the church of Lindesfarne, slayed everything alive, dug up the altars and took all the treasures of the holy church".

--
The Fury of the Vikings
http://www.thefab.net/topics/culture_history/hg05_vikings_01.htm

Fearless men from the cold north had arrived. The Vikings had come with their longships.

“The church on Lindisfarne Island was burned to the [ground]. The raiders hacked the monks to death or dragged them into the sea and drowned them. They stole the unguarded treasures of Lindisfarne’s rich and beautiful sanctuaries,” a Catholic web site remembers that day in 793.

The sacking of Lindisfarne, famous for some of the finest literature of its time came from here, resulted in the death of many of the monks. Others may have been taken away as captives, the desecration of the altars, and the loss of some holy relics. The famous Lindisfarne Gospels no longer have their original binding in gold, silver and rich ornaments on the outside.

[ravingnutter]

." Paul seems to be saying that their punishment for moral depravity is their queer lifestyle

Read it again and think about it, considering what the Bible stated about the "wages of sin"("The wages of sin is death" - Rom. 6:23):

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts

Because of the way they acted, God threw up his hands in disgust, let them do what they wanted and cursed them with the deadly AIDS virus. You didn't think He'd let them get away with it, did you? ; )

[thoughtomator]

Sure we do. See?

[don-o]

One confusing thing is that the gay movement encourages everybody who experiences same-sex attraction to define themselves as "gay," indeed to believe that "gay" is their very identity.

I personally do not believe there is any such thing as a gay "identity." Same-sex attraction is just a tendency to a certain kind of temptation, just as EVERYBODY --- because of innate personality traits ---- has a tendency to certain types of temptations.

But we don't DEFINE ourselves by our temptations. I don't call myself a "fornicat-a-sexual" because I was strongly tempted to fornication before marriage.

People don't call themselves "adulter-a-sexuals" because they are tempted to desire somebody else's spouse.

You don't claim that your temptations are your "core self."

And temptations are not sins. Scripture says "Jesus was tempted in every way that we are, and yet did not sin."

Tempted in EVERY way. Thank of that!!

God grant us a merciful healing of ALL our disorders.

May God grant me, and all sinners, a spirit of true repentance, and the joy of His salvation.

Mrs. Don-o

[stan_sipple]

"Because of the way they acted, God threw up his hands in disgust, let them do what they wanted and cursed them with the deadly AIDS virus."

Sorry current with it theologians like Bishop Spongebob, Marcus Borg etc deny that God does anything, much less reward or punish human behavior

[Charles Martel]

"The clock has been turned back during this papacy for gay people," said Jeff Stone, a DignityUSA member in New York.

Sounds like Jeff here longs to return to 1978, because we all know that gays had it much better then. (rolls eyes)

[Clint N. Suhks]

Try to find the phrase.

Deut 22:5

[tjwmason]

That rule is being broken in a few instances, there are a couple married Catholic priests in the USA, One in Ireland, and now, one in Canada. There may be a few others in Europe as well.

First, it is only the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church which madates celibacy. The Greek Catholics are more than happy to ordain married men (but if you are ordained whilst single, that's it for life).

There have also been an array of former Anglican clerics who converted and were married. The Holy See permitted these to be ordained whilst remaining married. There are many here in England who left en masse after the Church of England decided that it could ordain women (and many many more waiting in the wings, b.t.w.).

The rule is perfectly simple. All sex must be within marriage, all sex must be open to procreation. Gay sex fails on both counts under all circumstances.

[TenthAmendmentChampion]

Ping!

[iconoclast]

the 39-year-old gay man, who did not complete his seminary studies

Well, thank goodness for that anyhow.

[anniegetyourgun]

That does explain a Lot. ; )

[iconoclast]

Mayor Gavin Newsom, a Catholic, ignited the issue by allowing the weddings until they were barred by the California Supreme Court. Then, just last month, a Catholic judge ruled California's ban on homosexual marriage unconstitutional.

The American Church is simply a mess.

[thoughtomator]

That's about cross-dressing. Close, but not quite.

[bk1000]

"The Bible doesn't address female homosexuality"
Sure it does. Homosexuality is not gender exclusive.

ho·mo·sex·u·al adj.
Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.

[little jeremiah]

Homosexual Agenda Ping.

Regarding maintaining one's identity as Catholic and "gay" - it's like eating and throwing up at the same time. It's like being a fish and a desert fly at the same time. It's like swimming in cool water and being burned up by fire at the same time...

So the homosexual doesn't feel comfortable in church any more. Since when is the purpose of hearing God's word to be made comfortable in one's sinful life? He wants God to prop up his perversion. IOW, the pervert is god, (the center of his life) and God's purpose is to make the pervert comfortable in his perverse rebellion. Sounds as though he didn't get anything from his years of being a Catholic.

Let DirtyHarryY2K and me know if you want on/off this pinglist.

[Aquinasfan]

Life is often not easy.

Thanks for returning us to planet earth. 8-)

[<1/1,000,000th%]

It's not an easy life to do that, to want to maintain your identity as Catholic and gay," said Novak, who married his partner in San Francisco last year.

Do you have to be on drugs to make statements like these? Exactly when did the Church endorse homosexuality?

[little jeremiah]

Excellent point. Just because my mind (or anyone's mind) comes up with a particular desire doesn't mean I have to follow that desire, worship that desire, or consider that desire my very self.

Everyone can look at the history of his/her life and find desires which were overwhelming in the past, and now are rejected or don't even bother one any more.

Desires which drag one away from God can and should be rejected, and they can, with God's help. I'm a living example of that!

"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me."