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Pure vanity on illegal workers and immigrants
Discussions with my mother | April 1, 2005 | Yo

Posted on 04/01/2005 8:59:45 PM PST by hocndoc

I am sympathetic to immigrants, since half my great grandparents were immigrants. I have also seen some families whose efforts serve to build up our country, and believe that we are better off because they immigrated. I know some immigrants from Europe and Asia, as well as some from North and Central America who have no intention of ever becoming citizens and I resent that. I also believe that there are people who are still trying to buy a green card under the last "amnesty," through lawyers who seem unscrupulous to me.

It is wrong to set up a system that in effect says: "If you can prove you have been here and worked here illegally, we'll forgive you and welcome you with open arms. On the other hand, if until this day, you have not broken the law to enter our country, the only way you'll ever get here is illegally."

My proposal is to only allow a relaxation of immigration requirements - and *only* for those who are not in this country, and who will enter legally through the boarders. If the worker can get a sponsor in this country, apply in his or her own country, then we should increase the quotas.

The old way simply rewards breaking the law, the longer the better, and will encourage more illegal crossing, lying to establish length of residency, and that the law wink at employers and illegal aliens for their law breaking.

The new way will allow and, better yet, encourage employers to make a commitment, encourage legal immigration with its safety checks, and, possibly, make the other countries aware of the transients in their nations.

I know that this might be an exceptional burden to some who left their countries as refugees, but that could be addressed under a reasonable political refugee policy, rather than a blanket amnesty for illegal aliens program.

How can we make the other countries bear their share of the economic burden of vetting these immigrants?


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; US: Texas; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: aliens; hocndoc; illegal; immigration; workers; ytumamatambien
I know this is a controversial subject, but I haven't seen this proposition - that legal immigration and guest workers will only be allowed if they apply from their own countries - elsewhere.

I'm also interested in using the immigration issue to point out the lack of support for their own citizens on the part of some nations. If this serves to embarass and shame them into changing and if it causes the foreign States to spend some of their own money and time to address their own problems, rather than hollering about our lack of compassion for their own poor, that's even better.

1 posted on 04/01/2005 8:59:46 PM PST by hocndoc
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To: hocndoc
You come in thru the system period or get thrown out!! BTW What group of government loved darlings holds the most Open homicide and felony warrants in LA ?
2 posted on 04/01/2005 9:03:37 PM PST by Fast1 (Destroy America buy Chinese goods,Shop at Wal-Mart 3/18/05 American was gone when I woke up)
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To: Fast1

No one should be surprised that law breakers break the law.

The justification of breaking one law makes breaking the law easier the next time. And when it's easier to break the law than to follow the law, and the consequences are nil, it should be even less of a surprise that laws are broken.


3 posted on 04/01/2005 9:11:33 PM PST by hocndoc (Choice is the # 1 killer in the US)
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To: hocndoc
Nice reply thank you and it make sense looking at repeat offenders.
4 posted on 04/01/2005 9:14:20 PM PST by Fast1 (Destroy America buy Chinese goods,Shop at Wal-Mart 3/18/05 American was gone when I woke up)
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To: hocndoc

It's very easy to trace the current surge of illegals to the last amnesty. I view the latest amnesty proposal as direct encouragement to border violators.


5 posted on 04/01/2005 9:25:58 PM PST by thoughtomator (Fight terror - strangle a caribou!)
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To: hocndoc

Yes, as Michelle Malkin has pointed out (amongst many others) these periodic amnesties for illegal immigrants make those doing it the legal and proper way look like fools.


6 posted on 04/01/2005 9:28:22 PM PST by 1066AD
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To: hocndoc
RE: "I know that this might be an exceptional burden to some who left their countries as refugees"

Though there are many instances of abuse there are other cases where IMO we owe former allies, et al. whose lives are in danger at least in part due to our action or lack of it.

I good example was Viet Nam. Before that was Cuba. Hungary comes to mind following the 1956 revolt -- a revolt some think was encouraged by the U.S. More recently there were the Kurds, et al. owing to our apparent encouragement of a revolt against Saddam in the early 1990s.

7 posted on 04/01/2005 9:38:44 PM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (MSM Fraudcasters are skid marks on journalism's clean shorts.)
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To: WilliamofCarmichael

Exactly.

Reasonable immigration laws rather than a wink at those who are breaking the law.


8 posted on 04/01/2005 9:46:51 PM PST by hocndoc (Choice is the # 1 killer in the US)
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To: hocndoc

Add to that the lack of a real identity in the system, probably no property or known address and it does get easier to break the law - A person with nothing at stake is more apt to bet it all than someone who stands to lose something.


9 posted on 04/01/2005 9:47:23 PM PST by drt1
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To: drt1

Or a person who has everything to lose may become desperate.


10 posted on 04/02/2005 1:35:18 AM PST by hocndoc (Choice is the # 1 killer in the US)
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To: hocndoc
Here is the current law related to visas covering the type of work that illegal aliens are (most often) thought to be doing:

--

The H-2 visa category is divided into 2 subcategories. Both subcategories require your employer to show that your services are needed on a temporary basis. The H-2A visa allows you to come to the U.S. temporarily to perform agricultural-related work. To get an H-2A visa, you need a specific job offer from a qualified employer in the U.S. With H-2A status, you are allowed to remain in the U.S. for a maximum of 3 years, including any extensions.

The H-2B visa allows you to come to the U.S. to perform temporary or seasonal work. The work may be either skilled or unskilled, but it must be temporary in nature. Unlike an H-1B visa that requires a college degree, an H-2B visa does not have such a requirement. Individuals in the entertainment industry or athletes coming to the U.S. who do not qualify for an O visa or a P visa may be eligible for an H-2B visa. To get an H-2B visa, you need a specific job offer from a qualified employer in the U.S. With H-2B status, you are allowed to remain in the U.S. for a maximum of 3 years, including any extensions.

--

If the immigration bureaucracy had been managing this established visa program in response to the (apparent) needs of US employers, and the laws related to the hiring of illegals had been enforced, then we would not have 10 million people illegally in the country, nor be discussing a "reform" plan, essentially identical to existing visa laws, that grants them amnesty.

Why should I believe that any "immigration reform", given that the reform plan is essentially the existing plan with amnesty for illegals tacked on, be managed or enforced any better than it has been? Why should I believe that this 'one time' amnesty will be any more effective at halting illegal immigration than the 'one time' amnesty granted in 1986?

This is why I believe you are essentially correct -- we cannot give any favor to illegals already in this country. That results in an amnesty, and amnesty is a magnet for more illegals.

The solution is to adjust the H2 visa numbers to handle the labor needs of employers in the US, those labor needs that have supposedly brought illegals here to meet labor demands, and then stringently enforce the laws against hiring of illegals outside this visa plan. Also, the now voluntary instant check Social Security system should be mandatory before employers offer a job to a qualified visa applicant. Any document forgery or identity theft/ substitution should be punished as a felony requiring mandatory (short) prison sentences followed by deportation and disqualification from any further consideration for visas.

IMHO.

11 posted on 04/02/2005 2:06:41 AM PST by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: spodefly

Now then, how are we to put more of the responsibility on the home countries of the immigrants?

BTW, I would rather allow permanent residence after a (substantial) period of time of good behavior than try to force the legal immigrants to go home. That could be a positive and work further to discourage illegal immigration.


12 posted on 04/02/2005 2:16:30 AM PST by hocndoc (Choice is the # 1 killer in the US)
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To: hocndoc

I am sympathetic to those who go through the system the right way, not illegal alien border jumpers no matter where they come from.


13 posted on 04/02/2005 2:21:20 AM PST by cyborg (Feel the FReeper Love)
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To: cyborg

Good morning Cy! Just woke up here.


14 posted on 04/02/2005 2:32:40 AM PST by Clemenza (Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms: The Other Holy Trinity)
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To: Clemenza

I got awakened by a phone call earlier and am trying to go back to sleep. How are you and when are you coming back? :-)


15 posted on 04/02/2005 2:33:53 AM PST by cyborg (Feel the FReeper Love)
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To: spodefly
Unfortunately, it is much more complicated than simply adjusting the number of H2A and H2B visas.

Fifteen months ago Bush made the the statement that the Guest Worker Program was broken and needed to be fixed.

Unfortunately, discussing solutions to a broken guest worker is also complicated.

It is complicated beyond the how, who, when, what and whys of the breakdown.

It has become complicated by the use of semantical arguments and rhetoric. It all depends on what the meaning of the word "amnesty" is. It all depends on what the meaning of the phrase "legal status" is. It all depends on what the meaning of the phrase "earned legalization" is.

Fortunately, members of Congress do not face this problem in their "behind the scene" discussions and negotiations.

16 posted on 04/02/2005 5:04:51 AM PST by Ben Ficklin
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To: hocndoc
I know this is a controversial subject, but I haven't seen this proposition - that legal immigration and guest workers will only be allowed if they apply from their own countries - elsewhere.

On a practical level:
Very very few of the 20 million illegal aliens here will go back to Mexico, Central America, etc and apply from there. It just ain't gonna happen for a multitude of reasons. So we will still be stuck with 20 million illegals and millions of their American born children who we can never give the boot.

17 posted on 04/02/2005 5:11:28 AM PST by dennisw ("What is Man that thou art mindful of him")
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To: hocndoc
My proposal is to only allow a relaxation of immigration requirements - and *only* for those who are not in this country, and who will enter legally through the boarders. If the worker can get a sponsor in this country, apply in his or her own country, then we should increase the quotas.

World population is currently pushing 7 billion and on track to peak at around 9 billion. Most of the growth will occur in the world's poorest regions. There already is and there will be huge demand to escape this cesspool. Many (most) will want to come to America.

Excluding illegal immigration, America is on track to grow from our current population of about 300 million to 420 million by 2050 and a billion by the end of this century. Most of this growth is being driven by legal immigrants and their offspring. Illegal immigration is pushing these projections much higher.

As we grow, every problem becomes harder to solve. Education, health care, energy, environment, crime, poverty, standard of living, racial tensions, sprawl, water are all negatively impacted by immigration. We are unable to solve these problems now. They will be much worse with a billion people.

How much do you want to relax the quotas? Why would we do this to our children?

18 posted on 04/02/2005 6:41:57 AM PST by jackbenimble (Import the third world, become the third world)
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