Posted on 03/29/2005 8:42:48 AM PST by Grzegorz 246
A Russian Mi-8 military helicopter has crashed in the war-ravaged Chechnya region, with some reports saying six people on board were killed. The crash happened 20km (13 miles) from the main Russian military base at Khankala, near Grozny.
It is not clear whether the crash was caused by technical difficulties or rebel activity.
Chechen separatists have been battling Russian forces in the region for more than five years.
Nine passengers and three crew were said to be on board the aircraft.
But sources differed on casualty figures, with some officials saying no one had died.
Helicopter crashes are common in Chechnya, with a number lost to rebel ground fire, but others coming down because of pilot error or technical malfunctions.
The last incident happened on 11 March, when a helicopter hit power lines, killing 11 soldiers.
Bullet holes were later reportedly found in the tail.
The crash came just three days after the death of Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov.
Ciechanowiec was occupied by the units of the German army in the beginning of 1939. After a few days the Germans left town according to the Pact between Germany and the U.S.S.R., and Ciechanowiec fell under the Soviet rule. Because it was near the border, it became a center for refugees from the German occupied territories in Poland. Tens among the refugee fell sick with typhus epidemic. The Russians built a hospital in which the sick among the refugees and the townspeople of Ciechanowiec were hospitalized and the epidemic was liquidated. The Jews of town adjusted quickly to the new situation. In the beginning of 1940, the artisans organized themselves in cooperatives and many worked in offices and factories for the new rulers. In the spring of 1940 a decree was issued obliging everyone to issue Russian "passport" (identity card). During this period, many Jews of Ciechanowiec were declared as "untrustworthy elements", their property had been nationalized before by the Soviets and many of them were sent to exile in Russia. Also the refugees who refused to receive "passports" were banished. But due to this deportation decree, many survived the war and saw its end. In the years 1940-1941 many of the youth were enlisted to the Red Army.
On June 22nd, 1941 at 4:00 am Ciechanowiec was bombarded by the German artillery. The bombardment mainly hit a neighborhood in the "old city", where 30 Jews were injured and many died later from their wounds. The town was occupied in the same day. As a mayor of town, the German appointed a "Volksdeutscher" name Richter. Life of the Jews became outlawed. Murders, robbery and abuse became a matter of daily routine. The Germans imprisoned 7 Jews, among them Szabtai Kaszmejn and Yeszajah Klopot and executed them. Men and women were snapped to forced labor. These acts were accompanied by brutal and cruel treatments. The situation worsened when the Nazi Romanus arrived to Ciechanowiec and appointed the mayor of town. In the end of 1941, all the Jews over 12 years of age were obliged to bear white ribbon and yellow Star of David on it. The synagogues were shut down and even a prayer of the individual was considered a sever offense. A Judenrat was appointed with Efraim Winer as its chairman. In the autumn of 1941, a ghetto was established. It included 2 quarters. Around each one a wire fence was built and the connection between the two was a bridge. Exit from the Ghetto was banned. Those who dare exit in search of food, were shot on the spot. Food supplies were brought into the Ghetto by authorization of the Nazi Romanus and his Polish anti-Semite assistant Pszilkowski. Everyday women and men between the ages of 18-60 were led to forced labor outside the Ghetto. They worked in paving the road, in building and in German factories. As wages for their work, they were given 300 gram of bread only. The situation of the artisans was little better. Raw materials were brought from Bielsk and for the finished products they received food products. In the winter of 1941/42 Jews who were deported from Zareby and Czyzewo were added to the ghetto population. In Ciechanowiec there were by then 4000 Jews. Around 1000 of them were occupied daily by the Germans.
The persecutions worsened in the year 1942, and in the end of January 1942, 18 Jews were arrested. The Germans accused them of being communists. Among them were Lin and his two sons, Mosze Zolotow and Ajzik Midler. The prisoners were held during 3 weeks and after cruel tortures were executed. In March 1942 6 other Jews were murdered, among them Menes Lew and Icchak Zeliger. In October 31st, 1942, the Germans ordered the Jews to bring 250 men and 35 women with profession to Romanus, to be sent to a nearby village Pobikra for work. The aim of the Germans was to deceive the Jews and hide the truth about their tragic fate. All the men and women who presented themselves were taken out of the Ghetto under guard, taken to a place 35 kms far from Ciechanowiec and were shot to death. Only 5 managed to escape.
In the morning of November 2nd, 1942 the German and Polish police encircled the ghetto. Panic seized the ghetto. Many tried to escape to no avail. The Germans and their Polish collaborators opened fire and many of the Jews were murdered on the spot. Only 31 persons managed to escape. Large part of the local population in the place collaborated with the occupiers. They blackmailed those who run away to the forests and asked for hiding in the villages. They were paid by money and valuables and later denounced those Jews to the Germans. Only very few survived and lived to see liberation. On November 15th, 1942 the Germans liquidated the ghetto completely and the remaining Jews were deported by carts to Czyzewo railway station and from there deported to the extermination camps Treblinka and Majdanek.
I don't believe in collective guilt or collective responsibility or any other responsibility except the moral one. And therefore I ponder what exactly is my individual responsibility and my own guilt. Certainly I cannot be responsible for that crowd of murderers who set the barn in Jedwabne on fire. Similarly, today's citizens of Jedwabne cannot be blamed for that crime. When I hear a call to admit my Polish guilt, I feel hurt the same way the citizens of today's Jedwabne feel when they are interrogated by reporters from around the world.
But when I hear that Mr. Gross's book, which revealed the truth about the crime, is a lie that was concocted by the international Jewish conspiracy against Poland, that is when I feel guilty. Because these false excuses are in fact nothing else but a rationalization of that crime.
As I write this text, I am weighing words carefully and repeating Montesquieu: "I am a man thanks to nature, I am a Frenchman thanks to coincidence." By coincidence I am a Pole with Jewish roots. Almost my whole family was devoured by the Holocaust. My relatives could have perished in Jebwabne. Some of them were Communists or relatives of Communists, some were craftsmen, some merchants, perhaps some rabbis. But all were Jews, according to the Nuremberg laws of the Third Reich. All of them could have been herded into that barn, which was set on fire by Polish criminals.
I do not feel guilty for those murdered, but I do feel responsible. Not that they were murdered — I could not have stopped that. I feel guilty that after they died they were murdered again, denied a decent burial, denied tears, denied truth about this hideous crime, and that for decades a lie was repeated.
Don't shoot him, he's just the messenger. Attack those who made that site. Call them "Jewish liars", and expose yourself fully as the Polish chauvinist you are.
Since 1935 Poland was screwing Stalin so one day in 1939 Stalin deciced to screw Poland back. What goes around comes around.
Folks--Stalin was a terrible mass murderer and if you try to down play his terrible crimes, you make yourself in the same company as ms_68. Stalin and Hitler (along with Mao) are 20th Centuries worst mass-murderers. Crimes are crimes and nobody should downplay this.
I'm angry at ms_68 because he DENIES the well-documented facts that there were Poles who participated in Holocaust in one way or the other, but I don't want you downplaying crimes of Stalin toward Poland or anywhere else too (Katyn, or other things). Crimes are crimes and rationalizing them is simply AMORAL.
We are rooting for the Russians here and no one wants to see their boys die. That said.
Had Russia supported the democracy rather than sabotaged it between the two wars, they may not have gotten the problems they have today. Under Yeltsin, the Military was kind of doing what it wanted and they helped bring an elected government down.
All that said, the Chechens are a bad bunch (The fighters). While I disagree with the Russian end state (Everlasting occupation and satellite state), and some of their methods (Leveling Groznyy and other cities), their opponent is scum and can be rightfully called a “terrorist” horde. In the uprisings in Eastern Europe after WWII, I can't recall beheadings being common place.
Yet if the Russians ever want a lasting and real peace it will ONLY come through dialog, and not through putting a foot down on anyone who opposes them. Their pseudo-mafia (Crime syndicate run)/Russian shadow state needs to end if they want real peace. You need to “offer” something and it needs to be sincere! An Information Operation and brute force without accepting them as a unique people who want autonomy will achieve little. Without a real future, no chance of autonomy, no dialog, no, no, no the Russians will continue to do what they have done for 200 years there. Fight.
Even though you want to stick a bayonet in the enemies face. You have to talk with him at times. You must be willing to make compromises. We do, and it works. It works in the Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan………. The Russians are creating an ever lasting battle for themselves. A never ending saga without an exit plan. But maybe the Russians don’t seek the latter?
In this debate you find two types. (1) Those that distrust or even dislike the Russians, just because. (2) Those who are Russian and think all Chechens are bad and Russia is handling it all right. There seldom is a middle ground. While I do see one side as savages, the other side is not doing what needs done to "create" peace. Peace will not fall into their lap.
Red6
Agreed. I like your stance - cool headed as always.
How I'm making Criminals out of the innocent--do you even read the CRAP that comes out of you ? You are now saying yourself (after I posted a bunch of articles) that there were in fact thousands of Poles who collaborated with Nazis. They turned in Polish Jews and Polish Resistance fighters--that's the fact. Where I was making CRIMINALS OUT OF INNOCENTS ?
They usually were selling Jews as well as Polish patriots to Nazi GESTAPO or Soviet NKVD. So, why don't you restrict their criminal activity to Jews only? They were the enemy within and killed by the secret agents of the Polish Home Army.
Why I don't or you probably want to say why do I "restrict" their criminal activity to Jews ? Because Jews were systematically hunted down and murdered simply because they were Jews, including the children, the elderly and other non-combatants . Polish patriots who died fighting Nazis were heroes, but they were not murdered simply because they were Poles. They chose to risk their life for free Poland from both Nazis and Communists and participated in Combat Operations against Nazi Germany and later against USSR. They voluntarily chose to risk their life. Do you see a difference here ?
Certainly, Hitler had a plan to make Slavs (incl. Poles) German Slaves. However, I don't think he had plans for complete elimination of Slavs (at least During WWII). He wanted part of Slavs to be eliminated and part to be Germanized or Enslaved. I may be wrong, but I did not hear about "the FINAL SOLUTION" of "SLAVIC QUESTION".
This is not downplaying the terrible loss of life by ethnic Poles under Nazi Germany. Those who died as slave laborers, murdered as resistance fighter in combat operations or in Nazi Prisons, should be honored. The Polish Victims of Russian/Soviet Communism should be also honored. However, it's extremely important to remember the difference is that Polish victims of Nazism and Communism were not murdered because they were Poles. Hitler #1 Mass Murder Priority was the complete ELIMINATION of ALL European (incl. Polish) and Soviet Jews. Soviet Communism went after Poles who were perceived to be "enemy class"--not exclusively because of their ethnic or national origin. There were Poles who collaborated with Soviet Communism too after all. To Deny that is to downplay the significance and trivialize HOLOCAUST.
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