Russian chopper down in Chechnya

So you are telling me that there were no ordinary Poles who participated in Nazi atrocities against their fellow Polish Jews--right ? I suspected you would do this. I'm not going to go to name calling cause I don't want my FR account get suspended, but here are the well researched facts.

For instance, there was a Jedbawne pogrom in July 10, 1941 in which 1600 Polish Jewish Men, women and Children were brutally murdered. It was stated for decades that it was German Nazis who did it. However historian Jan Gross recently researched the facts and found a plenty of documentary proven evidence that it was not Nazi's who killed their Polish-Jews in Jedbawne, but their fellow Polish neighbors with Nazi Permission. Would you deny this too ? There is a book you might want to check out then.

Or I assume you tell me it's all KGB lies ? Maybe Nazi Collaborators in Holocaust found all over Nazi Occupied Eastern Europe (incl. Poland) and Russia/USSR are also KGB lies ? How about this testimony by a Holocaust survivor and Holocaust researcher Kimel on the role certain segments of Polish Society Played in Holocaust. There were many Poles who saved their fellow Jews--I'm certainly not denying it, but there were also those Poles who helped Nazis to kill Jews. That's the fact and don't tell me that it is not after tons of research and testimonies.

You can choose to continue denying history or look honestly in the face of facts no matter how hard they are. The facts are that among Poles, other Eastern Europeans and Russians there were not only victims of Nazism, but there were also active collaborators in killing their fellow Jews. There were also plenty of ordinary people all over USSR/Eastern Europe that collaborated in one way or another with Communist Atrocities. Totalitarian atrocious regimes never function without some form of collaboration among ordinary people (out of fear or other motives) and this is a fact.

During Communism, there were also plenty of ordinary people who chose (either under pressure or perfectly voluntarily) to collaborate in the crimes of Communist regime. There were plenty of ordinary Russian/Soviet citizens who collaborated with NKVD, KGB that chose to spy on their fellow neighbors and turn them to Soviet secret police GULAGS. Or there were those who simply standed by and did nothing to rescue their neighbors and friends from NKVD/KGB and from GULAG, hoping that they would be spared during Purges. I'm American and Russian/Ukrainian native and I'm not DENYING any of these painful facts. You can choose to deny the historical facts, but this is on your consciense if you have one.

Admin:

If you suspend my account, I'll understand, but I can't keep quiet and decent any longer with ms_68.

ms_68:

So you gonna tell me that all the testimonies by researchers and/or Holocaust Survivors pointing to those Poles who collaborated with Nazis (willingly or unwillingly) to murder or abuse Jews are made up lies ? Then you are LOW LIFE CHEAP LIAR with whom no use of talking. Here is another testimony I found by another Holocaust Survivor B. Goldstein taken from his book "Five Years in Warsaw Ghetto". I put first two paragraphs for all to see. For full article go to www.yadvashem.org, go to Search, Type the word "Shmaltsovnikes" and read it--you HOLOCAUST COLLABORATORS DEFENDER !

"Shmaltsovnikes" Exploitation of Jews Living In Disguise As Polish Christians.

"The name derives from the word "shmalts" (chicken fat). These people used to approach their victims with the words "Give me [money] for shmalts" a kind of euphemism for their ugly trade. This was a terrible plague for the Jews who lived on the Aryan side. Apart from the deadly fear of the men of the Gestapo, the SS men and other Angels of Destruction, whom it was possible to recognize from afar, there was another form of inquisition which lay in ambush for these latter-day Marranos. It came in the person of the scum of Polish humanity, who made a business for themselves of Jewish lives. These "shmaltsovnikes" ["shmalts people"] were organized in whole gangs; hundreds busied themselves with this ugly occupation: to look for, recognize and catch those unfortunates who escaped from the ghetto and lived with Aryan documents, forced to live the life of genuine Catholics. The "shmaltsovnikes" sucked the last drops from them, and if they did not [pay] they handed them over to the bestial Germans....

This scum recruited itself from various strata of the population: former schoolmates could usually recognize the Jewish comrades with whom they had studied together at school or university; neighbors recognized Jews who had lived together with them in one courtyard or one house; merchants, traders, shopkeepers recognized those Jews who handed over, "sold" their businesses and apartments to them when they were forced to move away into the ghetto; Polish policemen and officials who knew the Jews well from before [the war] "recognized" them now, armed with all the powers of the new rulers and always at their service; and many others. All of these blackmailed the wretched Jews who were condemned to death, and held the sword of the Angel of Death over their heads at all times.

Here, a Soviet Marshal Konstantin Rokkosowski in his real Russian uniform.==

Soviet marshal in RUSSIAN uniform? HAHAHAHA:)))

Konstantin Rokosovskii was ethnic POLACK. He is in SOVIET uniform on your picture.

1991, last units of the occupant Russian Army finally leave Poland!==

Leaved by order from RUSSIAN head of USSR Mihael Gobrachev. The first ethnic RUSSIAN leader of Soviet Union.
You got your freedom from his hands. Not by your struggle not by your victory over anyone.
You just was fred as prisoner from jail. Your ward decided that you already spent your time and let you out.

SO you would just be grateful to those who let you free.

Soviet or Russian, means the same for us! ==

For ignorant people - a same. No wonder.

Waht about Kostantin Rokosovskii? You posted his picture trice.
He is ethnic pole not ethnic russian. DOes it mean that you do not hate him? You already submitted that you "hate" ONLY ethnic russians:))).
I presume by logic that you "love" Soviet marshal since he is ethnic pole.

Look at the United Nations sources, not anti-Polish Judeo-Russian chauvinists. It is amazing how a good old-fashioned anti-semite always manages to creep out of your average Polish chauvinist. All you have to do is push him hard enough and far enough.

How about Balts, are they biased or not? How about Finns and how they smacked your Soviet arse? ==

Balts are biased altlle since they conviniently forget but we ALL has to know about role of ethnic LATHVIAN rifle division which was the guards of LENIN himself.
Balts broght bolshevicks to power. WHY you ask?
Because bolshevick promised them INDEPENDENCE!
BUT again bolshevicks took thier promise back and oocupy then in 1940. By order of Josef Stalin who was NOT ethnic russian (just remark for M_68:)))))))..

Say again what it has to do with ethnic russians?

As to prewar time, it is an INTERNATIONALLY known fact that Poland in 1934 proposed France a joint military action against Nazi Germany to topple Hitler's government. Unfortunately, France rejected that offer and on Sep.1, 1939 Germany invaded Poland (together with her Russian ally on Sep.17, 1939) and then Germany invaded France in May 1940. ---- Care to post any source for this?

I already told here that any kind of phobes like russsophobes or judophobes (aka antisemites) are not smart. They never think over standard propaganda but just yell or curse or worse.
For our advantage all phobes are stupid:). Cheers!

Nazdrovya ;-) PS I'm not Russian so do not start. ;-)

The things are getting more and more ugly. As a person with a 3-year + experience of moderating political forums, I do suggest that you do something.

"Those scum (szmalcownicy) were usually former criminal prisoners in Independent free Poland sentenced for many years for murderers, rapes, or so. "

Anyway, "shmalts" (chicken fat) means nothing in Polish, and is surely no "chicken fat", you Russian liar! "Chicken fat" is "Kurzy tluszcz" - check it in a dictionary, you liar!!!

First of all stop calling me "Russian Liar". I have only given you a testimony written by an author WHO ACTUALLY LIVED THROUGH THIS. Here, B. Goldstein, a Holocaust and Warsaw Ghetto survivor talks about hundreds of ordinary Poles in Warsaw including merchants, former Policemen, schoolmates, etc. who knew their Jewish neighbors and buddies before the War and knew who was a Jew living as Polish Catholic. These (szmalcownicy) or (shmaltsovniki) chose to extort the money from them or turn them in to Germans. So you are telling me they were all in prison before the war and then all simultaneously got out when German Nazis arrived ? As soon as they got out, they started turning in their former neighbors simultaneously ? Former Policemen, merchants, students, etc--all of them were just an ordinary low life rapists and murderers before WWII ? DON'T GIVE ME THIS CRAP, PLEASE ! How many serial rapists and murderers worked in Polish Police before WWII then ? Here is another publication about what happened to Jewish Community of a village "Konstantinow nad Bugiem". You gonna tell me that this is a lie too ?

On September 1939 when the Germans evacuated the town, and the Soviets entered for a brief period, the Jewish population count was 1,200 (200 households). When the Soviets pulled out to the east, some Jews moved with them eastward to Soviet occupied Polish territory. In the winter of 1940 some families returned from the Soviet occupied territory to German occupied Konstantynow. They were captured by the local Polish police and handed over to the Gestapo, tortured and deported to the Neuengamme Concentration Camp just west of Hamburg [coordinates 5333 1000] in Germany where they were murdered. A Judenrat – Jewish Council was nominated in Konstantynow by the Germans in the summer of 1940. The Judenrat was headed by Mosze Roizman and Rabbi Jacob Szajnkind. Towards the end of 1940, a Ghetto was erected and the Konstantynow Jews were forced into hard labor in the nearby Sieberg Estate, about 1 km south of the Konstantynow market place, and in the village of Serpelice, [coordinates 5217 2303] 20km NNW of Konstantynow, on the river Bug. The Jewish hard forced laborers were exposed to severe most cruel beatings from the Polish local Policemen and the Nazi SS guards. The winter of 1942 was exceptionally severe. The bitter frost, the hunger and the hard labor cost a high toll of deaths. Gestapo personnel visited the Ghetto frequently and always left behind them murdered Jews. A typhus plague spread in the Konstantynow Ghetto, causing many victims as well. On May 1942, all Jewish males age 15 to 60 were summoned to the market square (Rynek). The local Polish policemen and the Gestapo herded the Jews by beating, stabbing and abusing them, to the sheer enjoyment of the local Poles and the Gestapo. Thereafter 100 able Jewish males were selected and sent to a hard labor camp in Rogozinica, for slave labor in drainage diggings and forestation.

I trust far more the Warsaw Ghetto Survivor and author B. Goldstein and other well researched works by Holocaust Survivors and other researchers thann such pseudo-patriotic demagogues like you. Your type always disgust me--whether you Polish, Russian, Ukrainian or anybody else. I hate when anyone tries to deny the historical facts to make their ethnic or national groups or countries look impeccable. I'm not denying or downplaying crimes committed by Russia/Soviet Union in Poland or anywhere else (and I'm very angry when jb6 or anyone else tries to do that), and I really HATE when others deny the crimes committed by the members of their ethnic or national groups and scream that this is an "Attack" on their cherished ethnicities and/or countries.

Plenty of information about pre-war situation in Eastern Europe is given in the Encarta encyclopedia. A quite illuminating reading.

After the Marshal (Pilsudski) died, in May 1935, his successors...began to imitate, in foreign as well as in domestic policies, the totalitarian régimes, especially Hitlerism. ...the régime after 1934 became increasingly pro-German. It allowed the Nazification of Danzig in violation of the Versailles Treaty, and contributed to the extinction of the authority of the League of Nations in the Free City. The Polish Government accepted, against its evident self-interest, an anti-Czech policy, and in October 1938 was an accomplice in Hitler's disregard for the rights of smaller nations by participating in the division of the spoils. Poland occupied the Teschen region, inhabited by a majority of Czechs.

...

In the meantime negotiations between the Allies and Soviet Russia were going on with the object of bringing the Soviets into the "peace front." For more than four months these negotiations in Moscow continued without result. Poland, while not one of the negotiators, was kept informed, and one of the greatest obstacles to the successful conclusion of the talks apparently was the unwillingness of Poland to allow Russian troops to cross her territory in the event of a German aggression.

Especially interesting is the following citation:

It was axiomatic in Poland that the main object of the country's diplomacy was to keep Germany and Russia apart

And so it seems it remains. The main goal of the hysterics of our friend ms_68 is to induce animosity of the Western public opinion against Russia (NOT the Soviet Union, by the way). If the West and Russia are foes Poland and Baltics are tremendously important strategic countries. If the West and Russia are friends Poland and Baltics are a backward forgotten province. Play one fool against another. I want to remind our friends though that not all are fools as they would prefer and the last time Poland played this game before the WWII it played it too long and was destroyed. A pity though that many people of other countries including Americans died as well.