“Human Non-Person” (Terri Schiavo Is Not A Person-Bioethicist Bill Allen)

National Review Online ^ | March 29, 2005 | Wesley J. Smith

[beaversmom]

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[winstonchurchill]

I realize that most here feel that Smith's article reaffirms theirviews. What I think is interesting, however, is that Smith never takes up the challenge to define what it is that truly makes us 'human'? Is it breathing without assistance? Is it brain activity? Is it a pumping heart? What is it?

In earlier years, it was easier. For most of history, it was a beating heart. When the heart stopped, breathing stopped. That was it. Nice clean end.

Is that still the view here?

I think folks like Allen are functioning on the Descartes premise: "I think, therefore I am." When the thinking stops, there goes the 'personhood'. Many of us (and most living wills) try to focus on means of maintenance, not capability. Yet, when we are honest, about ourselves, we worry most about losing our capacity to think (or even to think clearly). We fear the most 'losing our mind'.

Now we have a lot of trouble figuring out, from the outside, when someone truly has 'lost their mind', so it's easier for us to focus on 'means' of maintenance. But apart from the pragmatic difficulties, do we really contest the idea that it is our minds that separates us from animals.

I've always accepted without much contradiction that being 'created in the image of God' means the ability to think and be self-aware. Animals don't have that, insects don't have that. Only those 'made in the image of God'.

So why is it so revolutionary (apart from practical problems of measurement, etc) to contend that losing that 'image of God' equates to losing our 'personhood' (a terrible word by the way)?

[Robert A Cook PE]

As long as no animals are harmed by the contestants.

(Personally, I'm waiting for the gladiator combats to begin. No more of these cheap, boring "wrestling" shows! (where the "rules" are ignored anyway!) of simple beatings (charis, tables, bells already) and deliberately bloody cuts in an arena.)

Nope. Give it a few more years (2-3 ?) and you'll see a "Survior" show where the two contestants are armed.

The earlier foam-padded, armored and helmeted "American Gladiators" was simply a beginning. As usual.

[chimera]

But first they should relieve themselves directly into the face of Florida bioethicist Bill Allen !!! ;-))

So-called "bioethicists" like Bill Allen should be the first to take the needle. I mean, if they think it's so great, let them do us a favor and show us the courage of their convictions by leading the way. And why should they wait? I mean, they might end up as "useless eaters", a "burden" on their loved ones and the rest of society. So don't waste any time, do it now, if you have the courage.

BTW, I have offered this challenge to other members of the death squads, especially here on FR, and have had no takers. I can only conclude that they are hypocrites and cowards, lacking the courage of their convictions. Good enough for Terri, but not them.

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

Then you just wasted your time posting to this thread.

That's for me to decide.

[TheDon]

Yep. Definite sign of a nation in decay.

[NCC-1701]

This story reminds me of RoboCop. There was a line in the first one that went, "You're not a person, you're product". This is truly disgusting. Can't wait to see the aftermath of this. The recriminations will start as soon as the death announcement is made.

[maica]

But "does she value her own existence?" She's fighting for her life, I'd say she values her existence!


####

That is the very evidence I would use to argue for her continued right to live. She has proved to me that she wants to live. She has the spirit to live that survivors of POW or Gulag camps must have had. I cannot accept that a totally non-sentient person could have survived 'warehousing' institutional care for so many years.

Even if her cognitive brain function is at the level of an infant, I would support her right to exist. Her parents loved her when she was an infant. (Michael Schiavo didn't) Surely we accept that infants want to live, don't we.

When adults say they wouldn't want to live 'like that' they are at once assuming that Terri has an adult brain, able to comprehend how she is 'living' - and simultaneously assuming that she has no sentient brain matter. It cannot be both ways at the same time.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

I've always accepted without much contradiction that being 'created in the image of God' means the ability to think and be self-aware.

And if you are wrong?

[syriacus]

So I guess anyone in a coma, vegetative state, or severely disabled is no longer a person entitled to any rights.

It's ironic that Michael is fighting for Terri's "right to starve" and Terri's "right to privacy" at the same time that his ally, Doctor Cranford, says she has no constitutional rights because she is PVS.

On FR: Is Terri a person with constitutional rights?

[American72]

Chilling. this reminds me of a Twilight Zone episode I saw decades ago. Now it's coming true . . .

Yes!! My husband and I were just discussing this the other day. This episode was on the sci-fi channel a couple of weeks ago. "You are obsolete!!! You serve no function to the state; therefore you must be liquidated." Chilling, isn't it!!!!

[American72]

Chilling. this reminds me of a Twilight Zone episode I saw decades ago. Now it's coming true . . .

Yes!! My husband and I were just discussing this the other day. This episode was on the sci-fi channel a couple of weeks ago. "You are obsolete!!! You serve no function to the state; therefore you must be liquidated." Chilling, isn't it!!!!

[Virginia Queen]

Regardless, he is a pompous ass.

[maica]

I use to think this was not a plausible outcome, but after the last month it is very much a reality this couple and this society faces!
$$$$$


I pray that there are enough families like you and your friends to spread the word that there are thousands of Americans who require a bit of technology to get through their days, but are still valuable persons!

[Aquinasfan]

So I guess anyone in a coma, vegetative state, or severely disabled is no longer a person entitled to any rights.

It sure looks that way. And don't forget the implications regarding infanticide.

The first step to legalized infanticide came with the sanctioning of abortion through the moment of birth. The second step has come with the sanctioning of the withholding of food and water from a person unable to eat or drink on his own.

[ex 98C MI Dude]

"...'created in the image of God' means the ability to think and be self-aware. Animals don't have that..."

Recent studies have concluded that some primates are indeed self aware, and capable of independent thought.

Todays medical advances have moved the goalposts. There is no single standard for when the body becomes an empty husk. This case is actually a step backward from where the line had been set, and that has many people angry, including myself. I have seen the eyes of a truly brain dead person. There is literally no 'spark of life'. They are flat, unchanging. Terri's eyes change in many of the videos, depending on what/who she is looking at. She is not capable of coherent or cohesive thought, but she is not an empty husk. She is more like an infant that does not grow up. Whether she wants to live like that is the question. A court has found she wouldn't, but the ruling was fatally flawed by the judge's own error on the Karen Ann Quinlan case. If this had been a criminal case, the ruling would have been tossed out, and a new trial ordered.

If a new trial, encompassing all the evidence, had determined that she would not want to live, I could accept that ruling. But not the travesty that occurred in Pinellas County. That is an abomination.

[YOUGOTIT]

These were already born.

[Aquinasfan]

So some humans are not "people?" Are we going back to the Dred Scott decision?

The precedent was established with Roe v. Wade. The logic is following inexorably.

[cvq3842]

wow!