[Peach]

Some of her guardians were doctors. One was a lawyer. Are you under the impression that Terri as not seen by neurologists?

Have you ever read ONE single solitary court transcript regarding this matter? Just one? Have you ever read one GAL report?

Have you googled PVS (spelled out) and understand that Terri is acting like nearly ALL PVS patients and it means nothing? ABC has links on this very issue tonight.

At the very least, read the Wolfson report. Link below. Others as you may wish.

Freepers used to be smarter than this. People used to do research instead of falling for every single internet rumor and unsubstantiated doctor to come down the pike who "says" he's a doctor and just knows that Terri can be cured.

Are the new rules around here that we are supposed to believe internet people who have no way of verifying their words, didn't testify under oath and weren't subject to cross examination vs. court documents and people who did testify under oath and were subject to cross examination?

Are those the new rules now? Just tell me and I'll make sure I never do one damn bit of research again.

And for the two doctors you seem to think have validity that the Schindlers brought to court in 2002, are you aware that one of them didn't know the difference between a coma and PVS? And one of them is an alternative medicine doctor, has faked being nominated as a Nobel prize winner, his clients must pay in cash because insurance companies won't cover him and he advertises in the National Enquirer? Links below to that tidbit too.
The Courts ruled the two doctors who make up that blessed 40% you are so fond of quoting weren't competent and didn't present evidence that is recognized by the medical community.

1. In 1993, Terri's doctors recommended to Michael that he remove the tube. This is done all the time in this nation.

He didn't want to do that because he thought it was cruel. He then saw his parents go through it so by 1998(?), he said ok.

But still he didn't want to be the final arbiter of this and went to the court and asked THEM to make the determination. The Courts noted in their decision he didn't have to do this and effectively weakened his own position by doing so. (I have the exact words in the link to the court decision).

2. During the first 3 years of Terri's PVS status, no one argues that she wasn't given the most rigorous therapy. Everything that could be done, was done. He even had electrodes implanted in her brain in an effort to stimulate her brain activity. In the early 90's, the electrodes used make her ineligible to have an MRI. They use different kinds now and there has been some suggestion that doctors recommended those electrodes be removed, although no freper has ever been able to provide me with a link to that.

#3. In the early 90's, MS sued the hospital for malpractice. Terri presented at the hospital with cardiac arrest as the result of being bulimic. The hospital didn't pick up on that and didn't treat her appropriately which in part resulted in her PVS. MS was given $300,000 for loss of consortium; the rest went to Terri's care and is controlled by the court (I think). Mr. Schindler thought he was entitled to some of that $$ and they argued over the $$.

#4. Previous to that, MS and the Schindlers had gotten along fabulously. Schindlers considered him like a son and said they couldn't get through it without him. Then came the $$ problem.

#5. The Schindlers testified under oath the yknew their daughter was PVS. They now act like she isn't, but they've already admitted it.

#6. The Schindlers tried in the early 90's to care for their daughter and returned her to rehab shortly after because they were overwhelmed (their word). There is no reason to believe that 13 years older they are better capable of caring for Terri this time.

#7. The Schindlers testified under oath that they would be willing to see Terri undergo multiple amputations should she get diabetes from loss of circulation. They also said that no matter what she wants, they want to keep her alive.

#8. No honorable man who knows his wife is PVS is going to stand by and watch her get carved up. In my opinion.

#9. Michael became a respiratory therapist in order to better learn to care for Terri. Under oath, the nurses who cared for Terri said his care of her was extraordinary. She never even had a bed sore, nearly unheard of, and that he was very demanding of nursing staff.

#10. Now we have nurses and others coming out of the woodwork saying that they know Terri isn't PVS because (insert blabbering). It's amazing that they never told thsi to the Schindlers! They have written affadavits (if these people are even nurses...most of this is over the internet).

So some freepers think we should believe unsourced material over the internet but not court documents and witnesses that were subject to cross examination under oath.

Anyway, when I first started writing about this last week, I hadn't really made up my mind about this matter. The more I examined it and other freepers started researching it, the more I made up my mind.

And the Wolfson Report, which gives the most thorough history:
http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/wolfson%27s%20report.pdf

Then, read:
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02.txt
Greer's ruling in 2002 after the 5 doctor trial to see if there were any hope for her to improve.

http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/2D02-5394.pdf
The Second district court of appeals' (interesting) ruling in support of his decision.


This excellent, official time line of events, including links to other court decisions:
http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm
Extra Links


Cruzan decision
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=497&invol=261

More on Cruzan:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/cruzan.html

Terri's medical discharge summary:
http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/Humana%20Discharge%20Summary%20050990.pdf

Greer's denial of bone scan - the doctors who actually saw Terri, and the radiologist who did follow-up x-rays saw nothing suspicious.
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02-scan.pdf

Greer's finding that Carla Iyer and others were not credible:
http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/Order%20Denying%20Pet%20Immed%20Ther%20091703.pdf

Description of the complete 4 hours of video:
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/11/10/Tampabay/Schiavo_tapes__snippe.shtml

Description of the testimony at the 2000 trial to determine Terri's wishes.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/11/08/Tampabay/Schiavo_s_wishes_reca.shtml

NATIONAL ENQUIRER 1998 featuring Dr. William Hammesfahr (he has ads there)
http://www.floridaneurologicalinstitute.com/national_enquirer_1998.htm

[NoControllingLegalAuthority]

Why do you so desperately want the woman dead?

It is sick.

If you ever were required to bury your child, as I have, you might have some pity on the poor woman's parents.

I have nothing but contempt for people who wish this woman dead while her parents cry to let their daughter live and be treated humanely by someone not under the coercion of an adulterous husband who has proven himself a piece of human trash.

Quit waving the banner, "Starve Our Innocent to Death...for Their Own Good."

[samantha]

I hope you do not take this personally,but you are starting to sound like TLBSHOW. Just my observation.

[Axenolith]

If one granted that this was right and true (from a devils advocate standpoint), why starve her? You'd have people up in arms over it if you were starving an amoeba. This is crap. If her cognitive state is no better than a crab, sea cucumber etc... If the word is to put her to death, then someone on the death side should get some balls and start advocating squirting her full of Potassium Chloride or putting a bullet in her head. But Nooooo... even the pro-death side is a little leary of helping this "vegetable" along in to the dark night.

And you know why? It's because most on the death side have this little nagging doubt in the backs of their mind and fear that step up to the judgement podium and the Lord asking you what the heck you thought you were doing. So you scurry over to the tube removal side and the relative mental comfort of having had "nature" take its course. I got news for you, God will see through that obfuscation like wet onion paper.

Come on and step up to the plate, argue she should be put to sleep, it's the "humane" thing to do...

[absalom01]

First, thanks for posting all of these links in one place. It helps a great deal in terms of understanding where folks are coming from.

And let's stipulate that the diagnosis of PVS is correct, just to avoid that argument, and further stipulate that Michael Shiavo is acting in what he believes is his wife's interest. And let's even stipulate that her cognitive function will never improve. Granting all that, does it logically follow that it is ethical to kill such a person?

It seems that the argument that demands Terri's death by starvation hinges on a "quality of life" assessment. IE, somehow, while we weren't looking, the law has come to say that it's OK to kill someone if their quality of life falls below some standard -- in this case, a diagnosis of PVS. That seems to strike some thoughtful people as more than a little bit troublesome. In the real world, the "slippery slope" is not always a fallacy.

The undisputed facts are that Terri has no terminal illness, is not in pain, and did not leave a written living will. The remaining layers of conspiracy theory, speculation, and legal wrangling really aren't essential to the core assessment of whether she should be allowed to live, or be killed.

I don't gather from the uproar that FReepers are seriously alleging that the order to kill her is unlawful, but that it is evidence that the law has become seriously unmoored from morality.

[cajungirl]

I won't go into your entire post except to say that feeding tubes are removed from almost dead cancer patients and totally debilitated ill dementia patients.

I think there is enough disagreement about her diagnosis but being fed is not heroic in a woman who has no infections, no cancer and can be expected to live with food.

The parents are not going to care for her in their home nor is Michael. His conflict of interest is apparent and has been for a long time. I do not understand the objections to loving parents caring for their daughter unless it is about the state paying for her care. The state is paying as we speak for innumerable people in heer state and debilitated dementia pts, people with advanced mental illness, criminals for goodness sakes.

She deserves better than a criminal.

We just disagree profoundly. And please do not accuse me of being stupid or ill informed. There is misinformation all around and you nor I possess the truth.

[cajungirl]

BTW what Doctor was her guardian? I have not heard that. I have heard of three lawyers. You said "some of her guardians were doctors". Who? Curious about that as I have never heard of it.

[annajones]

OK you read a lot. still the fact that the courts ruled that way only indicates their writeups will be in that direction.

I'd like to consider a different question: Should Mr. Schavio be investigated for abuse?

There are doctors as early as 1990 who have questioned Teri's injuries as possible abuse (broken neck and ribs). Nurses who have said in affidavits that Mr. Schavio tried to hurt his wife with injections.

You can dismiss all of this as gossip, but gossip or not shouldn't these allegations at least be invesitigated?

Then there is C. Shook a past girlfriend of Mr. Schavio who was forced to testify. She stated that Mr. Schavio stalked her on numerous ocassions and tried to run her off the road once. She states that she is scared of him and is now married and has kids that she wants to protect.

Then there are Teri's girlfriends stating that just a week before Teri's injury she told them she wanted a divorce from Michael--not exactly what I would call "good" relations with his wife.

I think there is a "possibility" that he abused Teri and this should in the very least be looked into and that her body not be immediately cremated as Mr. Schavio had wanteds since 1993 or earlier.

Bottomline: I'm not convinced that Michael Schavio is as innocent as he makes himself out to be.

Fact: Michael Schavio collect $700,000 for malpractice against Teri stating he wants the money for Teri's care. Not long after he receives the money he has denied rehab services for Teri. This part is documented. Then he tells the people that Teri wants to die. Sorry like it or not he sounds like scum to me. Why collect the money and then not use it for what you claimed you were going to use it for?

[GreenOgre]

Thank you for one of the few sane posts since Friday.

Terri died 15 years ago. Get a hint people. Her higher brain functions are long gone and they will not come back. MS tried for three years to help her. Not three hours, not three weeks, THREE FREAKING YEARS. He realized it was over. He tried to carry out her wish to die instead of flailing around without any sense of self control.

Spare me the adultery crap and the other self-righteous BS of the circus clowns. Is it adultery to get on with your life when your spouse dies. Not no, but HELL NO. Can he carry out TS's wishes after a divorce. Probably not!!

If TS is so non-PVS then why is there only 5 seconds of tape showing her following a balloon with her eyes. Out of 15 years in the state she is in, and the continuing legal BS, why is there no tape of TS doing anything demonstrating self awareness or control? I'll tell you why. Her Cerebral Cortex is GONE!!!. Look at her CAT scan. Can you see the huge hole in the middle of her brain. Why bother with an MRI when it's obvious there is nothing there. (Do you keep searching for your car keys once you found them?) There is nothing there except fluid. Fluid that does not function like Grey Matter that it replaced.

[KDD]

Thank you.

The facts are there for anyone who can read.

You would think that one would try and ascertain all the facts of an issue before investing as much emotional capital as some have invested in this singular case.

Seems some patrons of the "New Media" have studied and learned well the worst tactics of the "Old Media".

[spunkets]

"googled PVS"

Let's see, here's NIH on PVS, "Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands." So Terri follows doc Bambakidis's command to follow the balloon, he acknowledge's she does to those present on tape, yet he testifies in Greer's court that she gave no response. What does that mean? Maybe folks should Google BS(spelled out). Terri responds to her father's voice on those tapes and strains to say the word dad.

1.)... He didn't want to do that because he thought it was cruel. He then saw his parents go through it so by 1998(?), he said ok.

Curious, coincidence with a cash award here causes me to doubt it. This also answers #4.

" During the first 3 years of Terri's PVS status, no one argues that she wasn't given the most rigorous therapy.

I do. Perhaps none was available, but the fact is that is was ineffective and those giving it were not capable of doing much. That includes being able to recognize she was not in a PVS and not being able to communicate with her.

"Everything that could be done, was done. He even had electrodes implanted in her brain in an effort to stimulate her brain activity."

The prior state of the art med practice of tying folks to a chair and tossing them off a cliff also failed most of the time. also answers #s, 5 and 6

"#7. The Schindlers testified under oath that they would be willing to see Terri undergo multiple amputations should she get diabetes from loss of circulation. They also said that no matter what she wants, they want to keep her alive."

That is their problem. The law forbids them from taking action against her wishes, but her response during the exam ordered by Greer just prior to 2003 indicates that she did not want the tube removed and was happy that the parents were there.

"8. No honorable man who knows his wife is PVS is going to stand by and watch her get carved up. In my opinion. "

That's correct. Terri is not in a PVS though, and no honorable man would mount the con for cash and then immediately pull the plug on his wife who was not in a PVS.

"#9. Michael became a respiratory therapist in order to better learn to care for Terri."

CBS. "Under oath, the nurses who cared for Terri said his care of her was extraordinary. She never even had a bed sore, nearly unheard of, and that he was very demanding of nursing staff."

Before, or after hepocked the cash?

[syriacus]

No honorable man who knows his wife is PVS is going to stand by and watch her get carved up. In my opinion.

There's a basic flaw with this argument and with the "Would you want to be in Terri's condition for x years?" argument.

You are describing what Terri looks like to a healthy person observing her. You are not describing what things look like to Terri. And it's Terri's wishes, not the observers wishes, we are told we must consider.

There are two ways, at any given moment that Terri can "look at" things.

Either
1. Terri might be unaware - unfeeling, unthinking brain dead. Felos and Michael say Terri has been "dead for 15 years," that she "feels nothing." Cranford says she has a "flat eeg."
2. Terri might be aware, although hazily aware.

Now, if Terri feels and thinks nothing, then she has no wish to die. Why would it hurt her to keep her alive? Give her to her parents who said they will take care of her.

If Terri can think and feel, then give her to her parents who want to give her therapy.

Michael washed his hands of Terri long ago.