Posted on 03/09/2005 9:47:25 AM PST by qam1
NEW YORK – They've been part of the American "uniform" for years, worn to casual restaurants, house parties, and some workplaces.
But as jeans become more expensive, they are also becoming more ubiquitous, showing up everywhere from Midwestern churches to Broadway shows. Nothing is off limits, it seems. Or is it? Among those who buy high-priced, designer denim or who simply don jeans frequently - there's debate about where it's appropriate to wear them.
The tug of war over jeans etiquette is particularly prevalent in New York City. Here, people tend to be more creative about their appearance, and are often more demanding about how fashion-conscious people should look, says Dannielle Romano, editor at large for DailyCandy.com, a fashion and trends website.
Many 20- and 30-somethings here have theater backgrounds, for example, and often say it's inappropriate to wear jeans to theater and other cultural performances out of respect for the performers and the surroundings (even though the venues themselves have no official dress codes).
"I am all in favor of the current denim revolution that we are having, but I do feel that there are times when jeans should be left at home," says Lisa Kerson, a jewelry designer in her early 30s, whose parents insisted that she look nice when going to a play or traveling on a plane. "I still get bothered when I see people wearing jeans to the theater, ballet, opera, etc.," she says in an e-mail.
Melissa Popiel also prefers not to see denim at the theater, or at an engagement party. To her, jeans are OK for a house party or a casual dinner, but not for traditionally dressy places. "I don't like going to cocktail parties and seeing people in jeans," says the advertising executive, who's in her late 20s.
Ms. Popiel estimates she owns about 15 to 20 pairs, including premium brands, and has paid as much as $200 for a pair.
Many others are also paying big bucks for their jeans - from $150 to $1,000 or more per pair. Celebrities, in particular, are making jeans their garb of choice for appearances on talk shows and at some red-carpet events.
That, say fashion experts, sets the tone for the masses, who are encouraged by features like one in the Jan. 24 edition of Us magazine, "Hollywood's 10 Hottest Jeans," complete with suggestions for buying "premium" denim ($140 or more).
The concept of designer jeans is not new, however. They were also hot in the 1970s and 80s.
Are these jeans made for parties?
Etiquette experts offer few hard and fast rules about jeans, but among them are the obvious: Leave them in the closet when you're attending a wedding, or if your workplace bans them.
"A lot of it has to do with the appropriateness of the kind of jean you're wearing," says Peter Post, grandson of manners maven Emily Post and author of the book "Essential Manners for Men."
It comes down to determining if the jeans are for fashion or work. A pair that you do yard work in, for example, are "probably not appropriate to be wearing to a restaurant that night," he explains.
Mr. Post has seen men show up in quality restaurants wearing denim, which doesn't bother him as much as how sloppy their appearance sometimes is.He recalls seeing a man dressed in a T-shirt and old rumpled jeans. "He hadn't taken any care to step it up just a notch, to say to the woman he was with, 'You know, you're really important to me. I want to look good. I want you to look at me and be proud of me,' " he says.
Dark denim is making it easier for men to comfortably wear jeans in the evenings, especially since black jeans are no longer "in." But no matter how hip a certain style may be, some places are still off-limits.
"I probably won't wear them to a funeral," says Robert Smith, a 30- something businessman in Rockton, Ill. But in the past few years he's started wearing them everywhere else - to church and to most work-related functions.
Not the fabric but how it's used
The good news for jeans devotees is that standards for judging people on their appearance are loosening a bit - at least among women under 40. A recent study by Cotton Incorporated indicates that Generation X-age women (26 to 39) are less concerned about first impressions when it comes to dressing than they were 10 years ago, and more often are taking the approach that "you can't judge a book by its cover." The reverse was true for women boomer-age and older.
Alice Harris, author of the book "The Blue Jean," attributes the rise of jeans to casual Fridays in workplaces, which shifted the way people viewed dressing.
"We've actually gone back to a much simpler way of looking at it," suggests Post of the changing attitudes. It's not that certain materials, like denim, are bad. "It's what you've done with that material."
I was thinking about this discussion after I got offline last evening. I re-reviewed the pings w/ YOUR name and them and I realized that I over-reacted to YOU (and probably under-reacted to others, such as Melas). Sometimes in the heat of conversation names blur and you find yourself quoting the wrong thing to the wrong person. After reviewing things, I came to find that I owe you a profound apology.
"I was thinking about this discussion after I got offline last evening. I re-reviewed the pings w/ YOUR name and them and I realized that I over-reacted to YOU (and probably under-reacted to others, such as Melas). Sometimes in the heat of conversation names blur and you find yourself quoting the wrong thing to the wrong person. After reviewing things, I came to find that I owe you a profound apology."
Thank you for taking the time to review my posts. I truly do appreciate that, and accept your apology as well. And if I offended you in anyway, I am truly sorry. We may not agree on everything, but we can respect each other's opinions. Peace sister. :)
Sounds like you haven't even begun shaving yet.
Now there's a reasoned and mature response. Why didn't you just say "neener, neener, so's yer ol' man!" If you are going to move to insults, I would have expected a better effort from a self-professed sailor.
Why make an effort, as long as I'm pleased myself?
Professional pride. They don't make sailors like they used to, I guess.
I don't buy Levi's, as they are major contributors to the "Brady Bunch".
When I want to insult someone, I don't care what others think. If I'm happy, that's all that matters. The nabobs can all go suck eggs for all I care.
Ok, having slept on it, I'm in a better mood. I'm going to try to explain this to you, without the slightest bit of animosity, sarcasm or venom. I'll even apologize if some of my remarks last night were biting. They shouldn't have been. Maybe you'll understand my explanation that follows, but maybe you won't. All I can do is try.
My church isn't about us, the congregation. Now of course it's about God, as all good churches are, but that's not really where I'm going either. My church is about the unchurched. Long before I was a member, our church made some very deliberate, and conscious decisions to make the unchurched feel more welcome in the house of God.
We wear street clothes, including the pastor. The pastor wears blue jeans, a casual collared shirt that he never tucks in and boots at the pulpit. You think that's disrespectful, but I assure you that none of us in our church are trying to be disrespectful.
Despite being a large, prosperous, well-to-do church, we wear street clothes. We don't wear them to be stealth Christians as you suggested, and we don't wear them to feel comfortable. We do wear them so that the unchurched, the lost, can walk off the street and into our church and if not feel comfortable, at least not feel like they should leave because they're not dressed properly.
And for the real joyful news, it works. Praise God, it works. Maybe it's the biker with the shaved head (not me) holding the door open. Maybe it's our fliers saying that if you come check us out, you should leave your checkbook at home. Maybe it's our flyer that says come as you are, and we'll love you anyway. Who knows, but it works.
We've made some other decisions along the same vein. We never ask for money. You won't hear the pastor preach a money message and you can show up at our church and never, ever worry about what the guy or girl next to you thinks when you don't put anything in the collection plate, because we don't have a collection plate. If you want to donate there are a couple anonymous donation boxes here and there.
Our music is contemporary, and lively. As our pastor points out, all church music is contemporary in the 2000 year history of the church, ours is just more so. It might sound unbelievable, but some people have actually come to our church to hear the music, and in time come to Christ.
I could go on, but this is getting too long. The Reader's Digest version is that our church "dresses down" so that our church will be inviting to the lost. That's our mission, to bring the lost to Christ. It's not about us. It's not about us being comfortable. It's not about us hiding the light. It's about us intentionally and deliberately trying to be as unintimidating to the lost as we can be.
See, Maw, I done tole ya the boy could be learned! Ya thwack him in the brainpan enough, he gets it eventually.
Ok, you've hit upon something there. I can see how someone might have a problem with someone who wore jeans to a church that a long standting tradition of dressing to the 9's.
Even do-rags?????
I think we've beaten this to death. My best to you, my friend. I'll see you on other threads.
I thought I recognized the trait. You are my brother, in spades. He was always chronologically displaced. A man simply born after time. I'm the complete opposite. I revel in the present, and I find great joy in modern life.
I think we can probably just state the rule as follows: Dress in a manner that is appropriate for the environment. If a church's congregation has decided to go casual, so be it. If they're dressier, you should do the same. If you're going to the opera, dress more formally, if you're going to a dive bar, leave the tux at home.
I still have a problem with costumery though. And that's pretty much what I think of ties. At least I can see some sort of semi-function for a sport coat.
BRAVO! I slept on it as well, and I'm certainly in a better mood. Your post was so well written that I'm just sure now that anyone who reads it will be able to grasp what you're saying, and the beauty in the message. And I, for one, couldn't agree more. Wow, very very good. Your church is doing God's work and He is obviously working through you and your congregation. I applaud you all.
Where, no doubt, we'll be siding with each other against those other ignorant louts, like as not.
I'm actually much happier working in a business casual environment, especially here in DC where having to wear a suit in the brutally hot summer is utter torture.
"I'm actually much happier working in a business casual environment, especially here in DC where having to wear a suit in the brutally hot summer is utter torture."
I've often wondered how men can wear suits and ties in the scorching summer heat. Surely it must hurt their productivity. I know my mind doesn't work very well when I'm overheated....literally and physically. har har
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