That's Aweseome! Welcome Home!
Posted on 02/25/2005 10:23:31 PM PST by neverdem
The Episcopal Church U.S.A. began to grapple yesterday with a request from the leaders of the worldwide Anglican Communion to withdraw its official representatives from a major Anglican governing body to avoid a rupture over homosexuality.
"That request is going to create agony in this building," the Rev. William L. Sachs, director of the Episcopal Church Foundation, said, referring to the headquarters of the church in New York. The foundation, an independent organization, follows grass-roots trends in the church.
"I hope," Father Sachs said, "they would see the long-term wisdom in the request rather than the short-term pain. I see the request as a compromise gesture from trying to exclude the churches on the one hand and excusing what they've done on the other. It's the classic Anglican middle ground."
Late Thursday, the primates of 35 provinces, or regions, of the communion meeting at Dromantine, a 200-year-old estate 30 miles south of Belfast, Northern Ireland, issued a communiqué addressing the rifts in the denomination that emerged after the Episcopal Church ordained an openly gay man as a bishop of New Hampshire in late 2003 and a diocese in Canada developed a liturgy for and blessed same-sex unions.
As part of a compromise, the primates asked the two North American churches to refrain from sending official representatives to a meeting in June of the Anglican Consultative Council in Nottingham, England. But they left open the door for unofficial delegations from both churches who could explain their decisions on homosexuality.
The requests have no precedent, members of the clergy and other church experts said. Neither church acted on the request. But American clerics from conservatives to moderates to advocates of gay rights said they saw positive steps and concessions in the communiqué.
"It pains me that to facilitate the process of reconciliation, the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada have been invited to withdraw from the next meeting of the Anglican Consultative Council," Bishop John Bryson Chane of Washington wrote in response to the communiqué. Bishop Chane, who voted to consecrate the Rev. V. Gene Robinson, who is gay, as bishop of New Hampshire, added, "Yet this does not seem too onerous a price to pay for the preservation of the communion."
Bishop Chane was heartened by the invitation to delegates who would explain to the communion the actions involving gays.
Bishop Robert Duncan of Pittsburgh, moderator of the Anglican Communion Network, a group of 10 dioceses that reject the Episcopal Church's governance, said he was impressed by an apparently opposite sentiment, the primates' willingness to distance themselves from the North American churches for their decisions.
"I think it was hugely positive," Bishop Duncan said. "There is a clarity in it that we haven't seen before. The only way you can read it is two provinces of the communion have been asked to explain themselves and stand aside until they can do it."
Such conflicting interpretations point to the primates' desire to answer needs on both sides, members of the clergy and other experts said. Conservatives, especially from developing nations, wanted to punish the North American churches. Liberals sought an affirmation of national and regional churches' autonomy.
That each side picked out what it deemed positive also pointed to a deep desire among Anglicans to hold their church together, those members of the clergy and other experts said.
"In order to maintain our integrity and hold our heads high, we all needed to take something home," Archbishop Andrew Hutchison of the Anglican Church of Canada said.
The Most Rev. Frank T. Griswold, presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, would probably consult with a variety of clergy and laity before responding to the request for the June meeting, a spokeswoman, the Rev. Jan Nunley, said. The archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, indicated yesterday at a news conference in Dromantine that the unity of the 77 million-member denomination rested with the North Americans' decisions.
"The North American churches have been told very clearly and very directly about the potential cost of the decisions they have taken," Archbishop Williams said. "The question now is, Given that cost, where will you put yourselves? How close to you want to be to the other churches?"
Neela Banerjee reported from Washington for this article, and Brian Lavery from Newry, Northern Ireland.
Dear newheart,
"Yes, the 'pagans' will try to make the claim you describe. It is their typical ploy."
I think that's their preferred method. But if it doesn't work, their second method works well enough, which is to persuade everyone that for one reason or another, it would be best to take more time to examine the issue.
I forgot my homework.
The dog ate it.
My little sister burned down the house while playing with matches, and I got second degree burns trying to save my homework assignment, but to no avail.
I never got the assignment in the first place.
Oh! You wanted me to WRITE the assignment, and TURN IT IN!!
You never gave us any assignment.
Hey, I haven't turned any homework assignments in the past, and it's never had any real cost to me. It's unfair for you to impose a penalty THIS time. Now that I know you're really REALLY serious, just give me one more chance. I'll be better, I promise.
Homework assignments are racist, historically-conditioned, imperialist, Eurocentric constructs, anyway.
I'll pay you to forget about my homework assignment.
sitetest
Word from that quarter is that he's a narcissistic, sociopathic man who is in it for what HE can get out of it, not to preach the Gospel or follow Christ. As that person said, 'It's ALL about Gene'.
But we already suspected that, didn't we?
Welcome aboard the Barque of Peter from a new deck hand . . . hope you have found a nice conservative parish, as we did.
"If this were something I thought I could fight I would stay and stand my ground."
Whatever denomination you are, whenever, wherever you stand for what's right, God stands with you and you give a shot of "backbone" to those who without your courage and leadership would not stand--Joshua chapter 1; Proverbs 31:8-9
Well, I'm staying and fighting, although many on this forum seem to regard that as heresy.
"the wolf is in the fold down at the level of individual churches....Because of something called the "Denis Canon" that was rammed through at the national level, the national church now owns most of the parish property...."
Truly we wrestle not against flesh and blood but principalities, evil in high places. May God's people humble themselves so that God may hear from Heaven and heal this land. Putting on the Whole Armor of God, with tears in eyes, I urge you to CONTINUE THE FIGHT, the battle may be turning now that the Truth gets out on the Web via VR, blogs, talk radio, etc... Joshua chapter 1.
FReegards....
Well, congrats, but the Catholic Church is literally TEEMING with gay priests.
I think this is larely as a result of the stand against married priests.
It severely limits the pool of Catholic men who would otherwise be interested in the priesthood. It makes the church a perfect haven for men who cannot have a normal life anyway.
It is also the exact reason for the so-called pedophilia the CC has been plagued with. Not pedophilia at all, really, but the lust of homosexual priest for young teenage boys.
And yet, Catholics seem to shut their minds to the possibility of opening the doors of married priests.
Why???
"Am I missing something, here?"
Nope. If I may be so bold as to put a few words into your mouth: root the evil out NOW, don't tolerate it for three seconds, much less three years.
May it be so.
"every year you stay with the hell-bound train, wrestling with the demented crew for control over the machinery, is another year when your tithe money funds enemy causes -- and your children sit under a compromised pulpit."
By definition it's not a train on an either-or track...it's more a SUV that can turn any tiny or large direction, a sermon or event at a time, the composite tending to lead to Heaven or Hell, granted....I've never had to deal with this so I can only say I understand the concerns about family and children--including their being RECRUITED at such pervert-friendly churches....
Indeed the Enemy has infiltrated, most Deviously. Recall the passage about the wheat being harvested with the thistles.... God is sovereign and I have hope; GREAT IS THY FAITHFULNESS (Lamentations 3).
But the conservative Bishops made it clear that what has been provided is inadequate, which means they will continue to work with local parishes.
"By your token, the early Christians should have been fighting to gain control of the Temple in Jerusalem. Now what would the Bible say about that?"
You have generalized my specific argument in error! The Temple was God's and under permanent control of the Levites--who were charged with swift, capital punishment of perversion. And remember the prophet Eli's two wicked sons... Government by the duly authorized people, endowed by their Creator, Israel being also One Nation, Under God.
I Samuel 2:22, click here:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%202:22
Regarding your post "Church Remains At Risk of Schism":
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1351578/posts
Nothing personal--that is not your false premise, but we all MUST learn to recognize FALSE PREMISES--in this case, that the schism "could be avoided." The fact is that the infiltration and position has CAUSED the schism, whether naive do-gooders and Religious Useful Idiots acknowledge it or not. The enemy within is not "US" it is "THEM" and the fight against evil must always draw a line instead of seeking a "middle ground"
Dennis Prager has said well, "I prefer clarity to argreement."
May your rewards on earth be plentiful. The ones in Heaven are assured. The enemies of God and His Church would like nothing more than Christians and Jews create a little community and abandon the whole earth to satan who stole it but loses a little of it every time we pray, every time we remember that the Battle belongs to the LORD.
Dear Raycpa,
"But the conservative Bishops made it clear that what has been provided is inadequate, which means they will continue to work with local parishes."
Maybe. I'm unsure. I'm just a Catholic observer off in the peanut gallery, so I'm not close enough to any of this that I can determine whether or not that's the case.
But even if it's so, the orthodox Primates have given the pagans the cudgel with which to beat them, in that the orthodox Primates have said something that can be readily (if a bit sloppily) interpreted that the orthodox have agreed to "hands off" the pagan provinces.
This, regrettably, puts the orthodox folks on the defensive, because the pagans, following their father, will dissemble about what they promised, and dissemble about how they interpret what the orthodox have promised. The orthodox, on the other hand, will ask in sincerity, "Was there a misunderstanding? Do our brothers in these provinces have a valid point?"
This appears to be at least part of what occurred that produced the Primates' statement.
My own personal, meaningless opinion is that perhaps it would have been better to cut the cord, now. Throw the pagans out into the outer darkness, authorize new Anglican provinces in North America, or somehow revert North America to mission territory, under the protection and guidance of Archbishop Akinola and those who similiarly try to follow Jesus Christ.
But, I know, I know, Anglicans are more subtle than that.
:-(
sitetest
I'm Catholic in southern CA. I like the old San Fernando Mission for services. I've also been a guest at Pentacostal, Lutheran and various other churches for services. They have Pastors that don't hold back. Gays are clearly not welcome. Go to a Southern Baptist service for a change. In all the churches, I saw couples, good people, or folks that thought they need to get there at the last minute. You can include Conservative Jewish Temples and Orthodox Churches here, if you can last through the services. Hang with the Jews, if you get a chance. They have coffee and amazing food called knishes after service.
I think if you look into the situation, you will find that it's the dioceses that had ultra-liberal bishops and cardinals that were allowed to introduce all sorts of New Age, unorthodox, pernicious innovations - the gay priests seem to have gravitated to those areas like, well, moths to a candle.
And relaxing the requirements for ordination is one of the things that led to problems in those dioceses. Their seminaries are the ones that are hurting for candidates - the seminaries that are "old-fashioned" and orthodox are full up and overflowing - turning candidates away. Catholic men will answer the call if it's an authentic call, not watered-down, New Age, do-your-own-thing "come-hither".
I'll bump that!
Priestly celibacy is based on Scripture ....
"His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with [his] wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All [men] cannot receive this saying, save [they] to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it]." - Matthew 19:10-12
What the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on Celibacy of the Clergy.
As a cradle catholic, I can assure you that the demands placed on the catholic priest far outweigh those of the protestant minister.
Well, congrats, but the Catholic Church is literally TEEMING with gay priests.
There are gay priests who must also adhere to the vow of celibacy. "Teeming" is a big stretch of the imagination. There was an influx during the 60s and 70s but the seminaries have now been visited and cleaned up.
It severely limits the pool of Catholic men who would otherwise be interested in the priesthood.
This is a great misperception of the celibate priesthood. Those who enter choose this lifestyle "for the good of the kingdom". It is a call to holiness which they spend years discerning before actually making the commitment.
My pastor is an Eastern Rite priest. As noted above, he could have married and served as a priest. Like many others, he made the personal choice to give his all to our Lord. Good thing too, because his wife, if he had one, would rarely see him.
And yet, Catholics seem to shut their minds to the possibility of opening the doors of married priests.
Again ... not true. There are many catholics who believe like you and think that opening the priesthood to married men would resolve all the problems. This idea also blossomed during the 60s and 70s, growing in momentum as the pedophile crisis peaked. If anything, such a move would create more havoc.
The following thread has been running this week in the Religion Forum. In England, many married Anglican clergy are taking advantage of a dispensation offered by the Catholic Church to clergy who convert. Take a moment and read about their experiences. It may help you better understand the life of a catholic priest.
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