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To: 95 Bravo

Check your history books. Hitler was not elected Chancellor, he was appointed - by the President on the pressure of the democratic parties. Hitler gained votes, his party received some 41% (or so) of the votes in their best (free) election. The rest were democratic and Communist parties. The enemies of the Weimar Republic (Nazis and Commies) had a majority, and the democrats feared the worst, they wanted the President to appoint Hitler so that he could prove that the Nazis couldn´t do it better. Well, they never thought that the Nazis could seize power by arresting the MP`s of the Social Democratic and Communist party, by that - under violation of the constitution, but with consent of some democratic MP´s (!) - change the constitution so that the government could pass bills without approval of the parliament. Then they prohibited all parties except the NSDAP and the sh!t happened... So, actually, there was no real election day.
Protests didn´t took place, because the Nazi party had 100,000 of (former unemployed) men under arms (!) (the SA), which was a real challenge to the police.

I am not denying that there were lots of Nazis. But I´m saying that the engineer in Krupp factories, the soldier in Russia or France (even officers) were mostly no Nazis. They did what they had to do in order to avoid punishment. My Grandpa - although he was officer - never allowed his son to join the Hitler Youth. That´s where we have to start with individual guilt. Is my Granpa responsible for war crimes just because he was staff officer in the Wehrmacht? I say no, because I know where he was at which time (he has a detailed diary) and what happened there (ok, he was Air Force). You cannot held the soldier responsible for fulfilling orders, except these orders were not within the usual rules of war (say shooting civilians or partisans). While the SS guard having helped to prevent escapes from KZs bears guilt, the man having worked in a factory producing cannons did not.
We HAVE to look at the individual side, respectively it was done so after the war. Why do you mix it all together to the sentence "the Germans are all offenders"??

Do you really say that the Germans who run the factories bear guilt because they didn´t refuse to do so? They had risked their lives!! Tell me, would you refuse to work in a factory if the alternative is being put in a KZ? Thousands have decided to go into the KZ, and thousands died. I don´t know whether I would have had the strength, and I don´t believe anybody who says he had but hasn´t been there.

There was resistance. Secretly, hidden. Did you know that there were ca. 40 attempts to kill Hitler? Mostly by unorganized individuals, but some by organizations. The most prominent was on July 20th 1944, when a bomb exploded in Hitlers HQ, put by some officers. The resistance group believed he was dead, but he wasn´t. They seized government buildings in Berlin and Paris, took over command and lost it hours later when Hitler announced he survived and ordered the execution of his enemies. Hitler survived so many attacks, he believed he had a divine mission. You say there was no significant opposition. The truth is, that nobody trusted another, the Nazis have even put parents in KZ´s when the child said something wrong against the regime in school. The system was total oppression, you cannot imagine that, and it´s hard for me too. And before the end of WW2, no nation knew the right of refusing an order. You got an order, you fulfilled it. Today, you check the legitimacy and are not allowed to fulfill illegal orders. That was different back then. Good that we have learned from the evil past.

You are right lamenting about the bad image the US has in Europe. You don´t deserve that. I´m all for abolishing unjust and biased views. I have given you the example of todays commentary. Millions have read today (the BILD is printed 6 million times) that we have to be grateful for Americas achievements. This is an example of positive coverage, isn´t it?


74 posted on 02/24/2005 2:16:42 PM PST by Michael81Dus
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To: Michael81Dus

We could punch and counter-punch all day on this. At the end of the day, I suspect we might agree more than we disagree. You are correct, Hitler was appointed Chancellor, not elected. I stand corrected. But he still was able to bend Germany's will to his own. He could have ordered the factories to build consumer goods and farm equipment, but he chose arms instead. The Stukas and Tiger tanks weren't designed & built by robots. The General Staff didn't refuse Hitler's orders to invade Poland or France or Russia. The Landsers didn't refuse to march when ordered.
Certainly not every German soldier or civilian was a Nazi, but they all contributed either directly or indirectly, to the aims of the Nazis. The result was six years of misery and death for the whole world.
I wish to God that one of the attempts on Hitler's life had been successful. Those who tried to assassinate him on 20 July '44 were certainly brave men and patriots, but they also knew Germany was defeated. Where was their conviction to destroy Hitler in 1940? Did it really take that long for them to realize what a madman he was? As much as anything else, they wanted to stop Hitler from dragging them & all of what was left of Germany into the abyss with him. Unfortunately they failed.
When we Americans see pictures such as the one above, we
are insulted & angered. We have considered Germany a friend for decades, and this behaviour bewilders us.
However, your example of commentary in BILD is heartening.
I realize I offended you with my original comment, and I apologize. This conversation has wandered far afield, and I have managed to plant both feet firmly in my mouth. I'm glad to know there are still guys like you who consider America a friend. We need more.


75 posted on 02/24/2005 3:51:45 PM PST by 95 Bravo ("Freedom is not free.")
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To: Michael81Dus

This might make you feel better...not me.

My family members have told me that worse than any German Nazi were the Austrian National Socialists...they massacred anything they could find...absolutely brutal unfeeling beasts. (in Greece)


76 posted on 02/24/2005 8:33:31 PM PST by eleni121 (Four more years and four more again after that...)
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