Posted on 02/18/2005 7:59:31 AM PST by quidnunc
As a first time visitor to England many decades ago, the thing that impressed me most was how incredibly polite everybody was. By the time an Englishman approached within ten feet, he was already calling out, "Excuse me."
Civility is not the first thing a visitor to England would be likely to note today. Indeed if there is one thing in which the English, particularly the educated classes, seem to excel today it is vituperation.
All the old taboos against expressions of hatred have fallen. On the verbal level at least, the manners of soccer hooligans have been adopted by the chattering classes. Two days after 9/11, Philip Lader, former United States ambassador to the Court of St. James, was reduced to tears on the BBC's Question Time as the studio audience chanted anti-American slogans, while the BBC moderator sat there impassively.
Carol Gould, an ex-patriate American living in England for many years, describes a seen on a London bus, in which a tweedy Englishwoman, accompanied by a son in his public school uniform, set upon a hapless, elderly American tourist, telling her, "I rejoice every time I hear of another American soldier dying! You people all deserve to die in another 9/11." When the elderly American began to cry, her assailant grabbed her and started shaking her.
When the taboos start to fall, the weakest and shortest-lived taboo — that against open expressions of Jew-hatred — will be the first to go. Penelope Wyatt reported in the Spectator a few years back, a liberal lord's relief that, "Thank G-d, we can once say what we want about the Jews." …
-snip-
(Excerpt) Read more at jewishworldreview.com ...
This seems rather unlikely. 'Tweedy Englishwomen' with public-school sons would rather die than catch a bus in London. They have 4x4s, don't you know?
I have seen too many anecdotal descriptions of incidents in much the same vein to have any doubt that Ms Gould is telling the unalloyed truth.
It just seems so unlikely, quid. I've never observed such a thing anywhere on buses, tubes or anywhere in London, and I'm someone who takes a keen interest in fellow travellers.
An outwardly respectable woman grabbing an elderly lady and shaking her? It just doesn't ring true, sorry. I can imagine a lively discussion, but no more than that.
Does Ms Gould offer any more information? How did the argument start? How did the tweedy woman know her target was American?
Well said & sadly the truth . The older I get the more I value my guns & the more of the current events & trends I read about happening in Europe with regard to the Islamist-Facists the more worried I get . Will my soon to be 3yo nephew turn 21 just in time to get drafted to fight to liberate Europe for a third time in just over 100 years?
Here's Ms Gould's description of the incident:
Here is the background scenario: Exactly one month ago today, I was traveling on a London bus when a well-dressed woman boarded with her equally-respectable son in his school uniform. Ahead of her was an elderly American woman, who said, ‘I beg your pardon, I didn’t mean to bang into you.’ This prompted a tirade from the Englishwoman — let’s call her Lady E — that resembled a verbal assault by a brownshirt against a hapless Jewish pedestrian in 1933. The American — call her Mrs. A — sat down and cowered as the tirade continued: ‘I rejoice every time I hear of another American soldier dying! You people all deserve to die in another 9/11. You are destroying the world.’ Mrs A fought back: ‘I personally am NOT destroying the world.’ This only provoked Lady E more, and as the bus driver and passengers laughed, she screamed into the American’s face ‘I wish every one of you would leave this country and not set foot in it ever again,’ and Mrs A began to wince, crying. ‘Thank you for ruining my day and my trip.’ At this point Lady E lunged at the American and began to shake her. I jumped up and shouted at the top of my voice for the driver to stop and for her to leave the woman alone, prompting Lady E to come over to me and grab me. ‘Another bloody American accent! You come here and think you can strut about, well, you are scum.’ Thankfully, the woman next to me pushed her away. I left the bus as the American woman sat sobbing.Did I imagine this? No. Was the Englishwoman a crazy? No.
A few weeks before, I had attended a party at which I was lambasted, intimidated and mocked by a group of people I had known for some twenty-odd years. It reminded me of a comment made to me by an American expatriate shortly after 9/11: ‘Now I know what the Jews felt like in pre-war Germany.’
You can read the source document here:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15464
I'd hazard that she was.
As I said, I've never come across this sort of behaviour towards any foreigners on buses before. I HAVE had a run-in on a bus with a woman in Brixton who took exception to me objecting to her pushing in front of my wife and verbally abused me for the next few miles, threatening me with all sorts of things. She was mad as a fish, however.
...because most Brits are very hateful against Israel
Non sequitur
Blair's unpopularity has nothing at all to do with Israel. Israel is not the centre of the universe.
Ivan, most of the time 'squidworth' hits on the Canadians. This was an off day, bashing on the British.
Xenophobia, it's wonderful.:)
<< [I]t is permissible today in English society to utter any possible lie about Jews and Israel -- [And Christians!] -- but speaking truthfully about the deformities of modern Islam will earn one a tirade about Islamophobia. >>
And/or a bloody hiding -- and/or a prison sentence!
Just as a piece posted here -- on these AMERICAN boards -- that dares to call once-great-britain's spade a worn-out shovel -- will effect its poster a virtual bloody hiding from FR's resident ratbag regime of unemployed-pornographers, variously otherwise layabout virtual spivs and assorted cravenly-cowardly anonymously-pack-hunting online-wannabe bovver-girlyboy-once-great-british bullies!
A hiding, that is, of the kind poor quidnunc endures several times a day.
and vice versa. BBC hired the former editor-in-chief, Ibrahim Helal, of Al-Jazeera TV to "train" its Middle eastern journalists.
http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=6704
You and I went the rounds on this issue about a month ago. When I found this thread, I checked and didn't find you wading in on it. Since this issue seems to be a hot button issue for you, I thought I'd drop you a courtesy ping.
--Boot Hill
But there are several differences. First you would have to “try.” In the UK no special efforts are required. The UK press is much more anti-Israel and anti-US than the media here. The Guardian is worse but not to be taken as seriously as the BBC which is the ‘news of record’ in the UK. Further the BBC is shown all over the world so it disseminates that trash all over. And the Guardian is uniformly leftist marxist junk, but the BBC is not pro Labour in general. The BBC is only far left on US and Israel. Conclusion – BBC has a directed bias which gets fed to the world.
Second anti-semitism is largely on the rise in the UK and Europe, more than ever since before WWII. Not so here.
Third the US government is much more supportive of Israel while UK is Arabist and hostile to Israel. No US officials made the kind of remarks Mayor Livingstone just made for which he refuses to apologize, and none made the remarks MP Dalyell made about Jews. Laura Bush did not make pro-Palestinian comments to the Queen of Jordan as did Cherie Blair.
I can’t stand the BBC on its biased merits. That’s my axe to grind. And you won’t see me defending Reuters (“one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist” post 9/11 quote from management) either.
All that being said, what does that have to do with valuing UK contribution in Iraq? I do. But as you know PM Blair got his support from the Conservatives not his own party. And the BBC has been unrelenting in its criticism of the war. So if you want to fault someone for not supporting the troops thank the Baghdad Broadcasting Company which almost got banned from British ship.
It is useful to bear in mind that George Orwell had the BBC in mind as his model for Big Brother. Media-wise this is not new.
Sad to see the haters surface with such virulence, however. UK should be better than this.
That is notable.
Couple of possibilities. Could just be a way to arouse US outrage or could be the author sees another connection.
European politics is notable for two things these days -- being anti-US and being anti-Israel, both countries blamed for disturbing what would otherwise be a largely peaceable world. Not so different than the Iranian concept of the Little and Big Satans.
The author may also be referencing the actual anti US slant of the UK press as well. It was the UK press whose headline after the US election commented -- How Can 59,000,000 Be So Dumb.
You haven't read the New York Times or Washington Post lately, have you? As for the BBC, it is a leading TV channel, but certainly not the only one. We have Sky News as well. To put equivalents - the BBC is like your CNN. But I don't see you screaming about America being an inherently anti-Semetic country because of CNN or the Washington Post.
Second anti-semitism is largely on the rise in the UK and Europe, more than ever since before WWII. Not so here.
Cite and prove. This article blandly throws out statistics about anti-Semetic incidents without backup - suggesting we're worse than France, which is preposterous.
Third the US government is much more supportive of Israel while UK is Arabist and hostile to Israel.
I'm just supposed to take this as gospel. As I previously admitted - there are segments in the government where this is true. However these happen to be the counterparts to segments in your government that feel the same way!
No US officials made the kind of remarks Mayor Livingstone just made for which he refuses to apologize, and none made the remarks MP Dalyell made about Jews. Laura Bush did not make pro-Palestinian comments to the Queen of Jordan as did Cherie Blair.
Hillary Clinton did smooch Suha Arafat. Clinton invited Arafat to the White House more than any other world leader. Not just our problem, old boy.
All that being said, what does that have to do with valuing UK contribution in Iraq? I do. But as you know PM Blair got his support from the Conservatives not his own party. And the BBC has been unrelenting in its criticism of the war. So if you want to fault someone for not supporting the troops thank the Baghdad Broadcasting Company which almost got banned from British ship.
Montag said that the UK as a whole was going down in flames. Quidnunc is on an anti-British crusade. I can certainly agree the BBC and the Guardian are crap - but to extrapolate from that an indictment of the entire country is just plain wrong, particularly when our lads are doing so much good. Media bias is small potatoes compared to heroism, blood is more important than propaganda. Montag and quidnunc have lost sight of that.
Regards, Ivan
Thanks for the ping.
See MadIvan's last comment as it reflects exactly how I feel.
The media in all countries can indeed be linked to people forming negative views about a country. I can see why people would think bad of the BBC and especially the Guardian.
In terms of linking the media to a rise in anti-semitic crimes I think it is hkum though as the people that committ these crimes are either Muslim's who get their media fix from Al-Quds or White Extremist's who get thier info from Stormfront.
I read the NYT and Wash Post as often as the BBC. No comparison. No comparison to CNN either, though CNN International is considerably worse than CNN in US. Second I neither screamed nor claimed universal UK anti-Semitism.
I made three claims. Biased anti US anti Israel UK media, big number of increased anti-Semitic acts in the UK, pro Palestinian and pro Arab UK government slant.
It is you that are not reading enough if you do not know of the statistical increase in UK anti-Semitic acts and if you do not know that there is no US government counterparts to the pro-Palestinian, pro-Arab slant of both major parties in UK.
You said:
Cite and prove. This article blandly throws out statistics about anti-Semetic incidents without backup - suggesting we're worse than France, which is preposterous.
No one claimed “worse than France.” Is that your only goal – to be better than France? Pretty shoddy.
UK is one of four countries initially cited by an EU Report in 2003, the first report by the EU ever on anti-Semitism, that had a significant and disturbing rise in anti-Semitism after the start of the Intifadah in 2000. Need I mention the EU is no lover of Israel? Subsequently as a result of that report and the furor it caused two OSCE conferences were held on the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe including UK.
What statistical backup suffices? How about these posted right after this.
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