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To: Physicist
...my will is ostensibly free, but it is above all lazy....

Well, maybe that's precisely the problem, Physicist. On the other hand, having a highly active will might not get you a better result. I guess the point is that we need to know what is the sound basis for the exercise of will that won't (a) kill ourself and (b) won't kill anybody else. In due course. And just as trees bear fruit, causes have results. And it seems to me that mankind is steadily busy in the "causation business" these days (as usual), with effects that spread, not only to society, but also to the biosphere and presumably beyond.

The minute you say "I could have hardly done otherwise!," you have sold your freedom in principle. A human being cannot continue to be human if he does that.

I'm sorry, these remarks are probably taken as offensive, though I didn't intend that at all. I'm frankly tired, and need to get some sleep. Maybe I'll have a better idea in the morning.

I do wish you a good night, Physicist; and a better tomorrow. May God bless you.

564 posted on 02/15/2005 7:24:24 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
The minute you say "I could have hardly done otherwise!," you have sold your freedom in principle. A human being cannot continue to be human if he does that.

I agree, determinism is incompatible with aconservative philosophy and freedom.

Free will is a tricky debate because not everybody defines it the same way.

566 posted on 02/15/2005 8:04:35 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: betty boop
Thank you so much for including me in this fascinating discussion of thinking and willfulness!

The dismissive reaction you are getting is almost amusing. Personally, I loved your thought experiment and would like to offer a few more for the Lurkers:

Consider that willfulness is peculiar to the living. Imagine a dead dog and a live dog with a plate of cooked steak in front of them. Or drop a live bird and a dead bird from the rooftop.

Consider the will to live: Imagine a dog whose muzzle is held to completely shut off the air. Or pull a fish out of the water and toss him onto the dry ground.

Consider the willfulness of choice: Imagine a live dog with a choice between a plate of lettuce or a plate of cooked steak. Or perhaps a mouse with a choice of a bottle cap or a tablespoon of peanut butter.

Consider willfulness in anticipation: Imagine tossing a stick for a retriever time and again and then moving the hand without releasing the stick. Or approach a bear cub with a mother bear standing nearby.

All of the consideration the Lurker may have given to the above is also willfulness - meditation, intention, analysis, synthesis. Willful thinking may also involve abstraction, anticipating something which does not yet exist – architecture, art, music, literature, etc.

Not considering any of the above is also an act of free will.

571 posted on 02/15/2005 11:00:17 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
The minute you say "I could have hardly done otherwise!," you have sold your freedom in principle. A human being cannot continue to be human if he does that.

You're missing the point: it's not a box I have set up for myself. It's a box I deliberately tried to break free of. Only in retrospect, and through serious introspection, did I discover that I had not.

That's not to say that, if I thought about everything I did yesterday, there wouldn't be many moments about which I'd say, "how the heck did I come up with that?" But it's hard to rule out whether that's just a question of not thinking deeply enough to see the (Skinner) box.

"The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of." --Blaise Pascal

576 posted on 02/16/2005 4:14:14 AM PST by Physicist
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To: betty boop
I should add, by the way, that none of this actually means I don't believe in Free Will. "Free Will" is, by my definition, that process by which I make conscious decisions. It's just that I have noticed that my decision-making process is a lot more deterministic than I expected.
577 posted on 02/16/2005 4:16:11 AM PST by Physicist
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