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To: betty boop
Thank you so much for including me in this fascinating discussion of thinking and willfulness!

The dismissive reaction you are getting is almost amusing. Personally, I loved your thought experiment and would like to offer a few more for the Lurkers:

Consider that willfulness is peculiar to the living. Imagine a dead dog and a live dog with a plate of cooked steak in front of them. Or drop a live bird and a dead bird from the rooftop.

Consider the will to live: Imagine a dog whose muzzle is held to completely shut off the air. Or pull a fish out of the water and toss him onto the dry ground.

Consider the willfulness of choice: Imagine a live dog with a choice between a plate of lettuce or a plate of cooked steak. Or perhaps a mouse with a choice of a bottle cap or a tablespoon of peanut butter.

Consider willfulness in anticipation: Imagine tossing a stick for a retriever time and again and then moving the hand without releasing the stick. Or approach a bear cub with a mother bear standing nearby.

All of the consideration the Lurker may have given to the above is also willfulness - meditation, intention, analysis, synthesis. Willful thinking may also involve abstraction, anticipating something which does not yet exist – architecture, art, music, literature, etc.

Not considering any of the above is also an act of free will.

571 posted on 02/15/2005 11:00:17 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

I don't see much choice in your examples. How about a cat climbing down from a tree. Have you ever watched? It's really interesting, particularly if there are lots of branches. A cat's preferred method of descending is head first, something that scares the willies out of me. My cats will climb down ladders head first, but you can tell they don't like it much. Their behavior looks exactly like that of a person doing something mildly frightening, like crossing a pond on stepping stones. Or climbing down from a great height.

Free will, or the impression of it, is most evident in situations where there are real choices. The more coersive the situation, the more predictible the response. If you want to observe something that looks like free will in animals, you have to put them in a situation where the outcome isn't predictable.


575 posted on 02/16/2005 3:42:28 AM PST by js1138
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