Posted on 02/12/2005 4:24:09 PM PST by snarks_when_bored
"But evolution is science by definition, because the process of deriving it was scientific."
I don't think the impact of Annie Darwin's death on Charles Darwin was part of the scientific process. I do think, however, that given Annie was 10 years old, and that Charles Darwin adored her at the time of her death, that Charles may have decided that hating God and writing him out of existence was easier than trying to make sense of the loss of a child.
What you "die-hard" creationists and IDists don't understand is that we can be anti ID and anti creationism without being "die hard" evolutionists.
At issue is that evolution is science and ID and creationism are not.
The reason is one of process, not of outcome. And the difference is understanding what science is and what it is not.
Unfortunately, you creationists do not have a working definition of science (see my earlier post). You incorrectly believe that because creationism and/or ID are plausible explanations, that makes them science.
Well, wrong.
And evolution isn't a "religion" for us either. (I happen to be Christian).
A more appropriate metaphor would be exasperation. It's as if we explained to someone that 2+2=4, and they come back and argue that 2+2=5. After arguing it a hundred times we simply get exasperated with ignorence.
Ever notice that the astronomer's never have to celebrate 'Gravity Day' to get our attention? But, boy oh boy, these evo types... they are certainly animated about their beliefs.
A singularly ill-chosen example, my friend. I, myself, posted a FR thread celebrating the 100 year anniversary of Einstein's annus mirabilis of 1905:
Miraculous visions - 100 years of Einstein
It's not exactly 'Gravity Day', but it's close enough.
Oh, how silly.
One of the most ridiculous arguments is that evolution is anti-God.
In my opinion, ID and creationism are anti-God. Because:
Anything that diminishes God is anti-God. Creationism and ID dimish the true creation. They make it smaller and less wonderful.
My view of you and other creationists is, if you beg the presumption: When you go to Heaven (and I will stipulate that you are probably good people and will), God will say: "Welcome gobucks, you were a good person. However, that ID and creationism thing. Well, do you really think that was the best I could do???"
Well, Feb 12th is almost over. Here's a tidbit for you:
"Can you believe it? Abraham Lincoln and Charles Darwin were born on the exact same day, February 12, 1809, but their lives had completely different effects.
Lincoln is best known for freeing the slaves by issuing the Emancipation Proclamation, affirming that all men are equal.
Darwin is best known for the theory of evolution, arguing that all men are not equal because some are more evolved.
Darwin's theory has been used by atheists to explain away belief in God, whereas the last act of Congress signed by Lincoln, before he was shot, was to place the phrase "In God We Trust" on all our national coin."
And, on NPR today, Scott Simon thoughtfully discussed with two historians the following: whether Lincoln was, really, Bisexual at the least, or not.
It really is 1984...and I'm going to go to sleep and wake up in 2005, and say over and over, it is NOT groundhog day...
Thanks for the ping!
You're not taking a long enough view of things. I believe it was Richard Feynman who said that in 60,000 years, the only thing the 19th century will be remembered for are Maxwell's electromagnetism equations. Without incurring much additional risk of being mistaken, he could have added Darwin's theory of evolution by random variation and natural selection to his very short list.
I'm not a creationist nor a fundamentalist. There is a distinct difference between creationism and intelligent design theory. I'm not really an intelligent design freak either, I just find their arguments interesting and probable. My problems with Darwin go back a good deal earlier.
I do certainly think the universe is billions of years old, and that geology demonstrates that the earth also is very old. I think there is such a thing as partial evolution, certainly intraspecies evolution. But general evolution just doesn't hold up.
Many computer programmers do commit irresponsible complexity.
And thats Frahnkensteen!
Thanks for the insight!
Isn't it interesting that the founders of "Modern Science" were, for the most part, creationists. You might want to check a little science history. And you also might want to research what ID scientists have really said, not what others to say about it. You might be surprised.
Really??
Einstein, Dirac, Schroedinger, Heisenberg, Feynman, Weiskopf, Bethe, Bohr, Rutherford.... all creationists?
Well, goll...llly. I never knew that.
> Science isn't defined by outcome. It is defined by process. <
True, and part of that process is that your hypothesis has to be testable/repeatable. How do either Evolutionary Theory or ID (or the Big Bang Theory) meet that qualification? Seems to me they don't and we're talking about science-based conjecture and not science.
It also seems to me that we should distinguish between natural selection (which one can demonstrate by noting the development of anti-biotic resistant microbes) and the origen of species, which is unknowable and beyond the realm of science.
Easy for you to say...but, if one reads carefully what you said...it makes no sense. How does evolution conflict with good science? How do trombones conflict with mollusks? We could go on...
Early
* Francis Bacon (15611626) Scientific method.
* Johann Kepler (15711630) (WOH) Scientific astronomy
* Athanasius Kircher (16011680) Inventor
* John Wilkins (16141672)
* Walter Charleton (16191707) President of the Royal College of Physicians
* Blaise Pascal (biography page) and article from Creation magazine (16231662) Hydrostatics; Barometer
* Sir William Petty (1623 1687) Statistics; Scientific economics
* Robert Boyle (16271691) (WOH) Chemistry; Gas dynamics
* John Ray (16271705) Natural history
* Isaac Barrow (16301677) Professor of Mathematics
* Nicolas Steno (16311686) Stratigraphy
* Thomas Burnet (16351715) Geology
* Increase Mather (16391723) Astronomy
* Nehemiah Grew (16411712) Medical Doctor, Botany
The Age of Newton
* Isaac Newton (16421727) (WOH) Dynamics; Calculus; Gravitation law; Reflecting telescope; Spectrum of light (wrote more about the Bible than science, and emphatically affirmed a Creator. Some have accused him of Arianism, but its likely he held to a heterodox form of the TrinitySee Pfizenmaier, T.C., Was Isaac Newton an Arian? Journal of the History of Ideas 68(1):5780, 1997)
* Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz (16461716) Mathematician
* John Flamsteed (16461719) Greenwich Observatory Founder; Astronomy
* William Derham (16571735) Ecology
* Cotton Mather (16621727) Physician
* John Harris (16661719) Mathematician
* John Woodward (16651728) Paleontology
* William Whiston (16671752) Physics, Geology
* John Hutchinson (16741737) Paleontology
* Johathan Edwards (17031758) Physics, Meteorology
* Carolus Linneaus (17071778) Taxonomy; Biological classification system
* Jean Deluc (17271817) Geology
* Richard Kirwan (17331812) Mineralogy
* William Herschel (17381822) Galactic astronomy; Uranus (probably believed in an old-earth)
* James Parkinson (17551824) Physician (old-earth compromiser*)
* John Dalton (17661844) Atomic theory; Gas law
* John Kidd, M.D. (17751851) Chemical synthetics (old-earth compromiser*)
Just Before Darwin
* The 19th Century Scriptural Geologists, by Dr Terry Mortenson
* Timothy Dwight (17521817) Educator
* William Kirby (17591850) Entomologist
* Jedidiah Morse (17611826) Geographer
* Benjamin Barton (17661815) Botanist; Zoologist
* John Dalton (17661844) Father of the Modern Atomic Theory; Chemistry
* Georges Cuvier (17691832) Comparative anatomy, paleontology (old-earth compromiser*)
* Samuel Miller (17701840) Clergy
* Charles Bell (17741842) Anatomist
* John Kidd (17751851) Chemistry
* Humphrey Davy (17781829) Thermokinetics; Safety lamp
* Benjamin Silliman (17791864) Mineralogist (old-earth compromiser*)
* Peter Mark Roget (17791869) Physician; Physiologist
* Thomas Chalmers (17801847) Professor (old-earth compromiser*)
* David Brewster (17811868) Optical mineralogy, Kaleidoscope (probably believed in an old-earth)
* William Buckland (17841856) Geologist (old-earth compromiser*)
* William Prout (17851850) Food chemistry (probably believed in an old-earth)
* Adam Sedgwick (17851873) Geology (old-earth compromiser*)
* Michael Faraday (17911867) (WOH) Electro magnetics; Field theory, Generator
* Samuel F.B. Morse (17911872) Telegraph
* John Herschel (17921871) Astronomy (old-earth compromiser*)
* Edward Hitchcock (17931864) Geology (old-earth compromiser*)
* William Whewell (17941866) Anemometer (old-earth compromiser*)
* Joseph Henry (17971878) Electric motor; Galvanometer
Just After Darwin
* Richard Owen (18041892) Zoology; Paleontology (old-earth compromiser*)
* Matthew Maury (18061873) Oceanography, Hydrography (probably believed in an old-earth*)
* Louis Agassiz (18071873) Glaciology, Ichthyology (old-earth compromiser, polygenist*)
* Henry Rogers (18081866) Geology
* James Glaisher (18091903) Meteorology
* Philip H. Gosse (18101888) Ornithologist; Zoology
* Sir Henry Rawlinson (18101895) Archeologist
* James Simpson (18111870) Gynecology, Anesthesiology
* James Dana (18131895) Geology (old-earth compromiser*)
* Sir Joseph Henry Gilbert (18171901) Agricultural Chemist
* James Joule (18181889) Thermodynamics
* Thomas Anderson (18191874) Chemist
* Charles Piazzi Smyth (18191900) Astronomy
* George Stokes (18191903) Fluid Mechanics
* John William Dawson (18201899) Geology (probably believed in an old-earth*)
* Rudolph Virchow (18211902) Pathology
* Gregor Mendel (18221884) (WOH) Genetics
* Louis Pasteur (18221895) (WOH) Bacteriology, Biochemistry; Sterilization; Immunization
* Henri Fabre (18231915) Entomology of living insects
* William Thompson, Lord Kelvin (18241907) Energetics; Absolute temperatures; Atlantic cable (believed in an older earth than the Bible indicates, but far younger than the evolutionists wanted*)
* William Huggins (18241910) Astral spectrometry
* Bernhard Riemann (18261866) Non-Euclidean geometries
* Joseph Lister (18271912) Antiseptic surgery
* Balfour Stewart (18281887) Ionospheric electricity
* James Clerk Maxwell (18311879) (WOH) Electrodynamics; Statistical thermodynamics
* P.G. Tait (18311901) Vector analysis
* John Bell Pettigrew (18341908) Anatomist; Physiologist
* John Strutt, Lord Rayleigh (18421919) Similitude; Model Analysis; Inert Gases
* Sir William Abney (18431920) Astronomy
* Alexander MacAlister (18441919) Anatomy
* A.H. Sayce (18451933) Archeologist
* John Ambrose Fleming (18491945) Electronics; Electron tube; Thermionic valve
The Modern Period
* Dr Clifford Burdick, Geologist
* George Washington Carver (18641943) Inventor
* L. Merson Davies (18901960) Geology; Paleontology
* Douglas Dewar (18751957) Ornithologist
* Howard A. Kelly (18581943) Gynecology
* Paul Lemoine (18781940) Geology
* Dr Frank Marsh, Biology
* Dr John Mann, Agriculturist, biological control pioneer
* Edward H. Maunder (18511928) Astronomy
* William Mitchell Ramsay (18511939) Archeologist
* William Ramsay (18521916) Isotopic chemistry, Element transmutation
* Charles Stine (18821954) Organic Chemist
* Dr Arthur Rendle-Short (18851955) Surgeon
* Sir Cecil P. G. Wakeley (18921979) Surgeon
* Dr Larry Butler, Biochemist
* Prof. Verna Wright, Rheumatologist (deceased 1997)
* Arthur E. Wilder-Smith (19151995) Three science doctorates; a creation science pioneer
Individuals on this list must possess a doctorate in a science-related field.
* Dr Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
* Dr James Allan, Geneticist
* Dr Steve Austin, Geologist
* Dr S.E. Aw, Biochemist
* Dr Thomas Barnes, Physicist
* Dr Don Batten, Plant physiologist, tropical fruit expert
* Dr John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
* Dr Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
* Dr Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
* Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
* Dr Raymond G. Bohlin, Biologist
* Dr Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
* Dr David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
* Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
* Dr David Catchpoole, Plant Physiologist (read his testimony)
* Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
* Dr Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
* Dr Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
* Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
* Dr Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
* Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
* Dr Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
* Dr Bob Compton, DVM
* Dr Ken Cumming, Biologist
* Dr Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
* Dr William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
* Dr Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
* Dr Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist
* Dr Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
* Dr Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist
* Dr Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
* Dr Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry
* Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
* Dr David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
* Dr Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
* Dr Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
* Dr Ted Driggers, Operations research
* Dr André Eggen, Geneticist
* Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
* Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
* Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
* Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
* Dr Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science
* Dr Paul Giem, Medical Research
* Dr Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
* Dr Duane Gish, Biochemist
* Dr Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
* Dr Dianne Grocott, Psychiatrist
* Dr Stephen Grocott, Industrial Chemist
* Dr Donald Hamann, Food Scientist
* Dr Barry Harker, Philosopher
* Dr Charles W. Harrison, Applied Physicist, Electromagnetics
* Dr John Hartnett, Physicist and Cosmologist
* Dr George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
* Dr Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
* Dr Harold R. Henry, Engineer
* Dr Jonathan Henry, Astronomy
* Dr Joseph Henson, Entomologist
* Dr Robert A. Herrmann, Professor of Mathematics, US Naval Academy
* Dr Andrew Hodge, Head of the Cardiothoracic Surgical Service
* Dr Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
* Dr Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
* Dr Neil Huber, Physical Anthropologist
* Dr Russell Humphreys, Physicist
* Dr James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
* Dr Pierre Jerlström, Creationist Molecular Biologist
* Dr Jonathan W. Jones, Plastic Surgeon
* Dr Raymond Jones, Agricultural Scientist
* Prof. Leonid Korochkin, Molecular Biology
* Dr Valery Karpounin, Mathematical Sciences, Logics, Formal Logics
* Dr Dean Kenyon, Biologist
* Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology
* Prof. Harriet Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jong-Bai Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jung-Han Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jung-Wook Kim, Environmental Science
* Prof. Kyoung-Rai Kim, Analytical Chemistry
* Prof. Kyoung-Tai Kim, Genetic Engineering
* Prof. Young-Gil Kim, Materials Science
* Prof. Young In Kim, Engineering
* Dr John W. Klotz, Biologist
* Dr Vladimir F. Kondalenko, Cytology/Cell Pathology
* Dr Leonid Korochkin, M.D., Genetics, Molecular Biology, Neurobiology
* Dr John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics
* Prof. Myung-Sang Kwon, Immunology
* Prof. John Lennox, Mathematics
* Dr John Leslie, Biochemist
* Prof. Lane P. Lester, Biologist, Genetics
* Dr Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
* Dr Alan Love, Chemist
* Dr Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist:
* Dr John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
* Dr George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
* Dr Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
* Dr John McEwan, Chemist
* Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
* Dr David Menton, Anatomist
* Dr Angela Meyer: Creationist Plant Physiologist
* Dr John Meyer , Physiologist
* Dr John N. Moore, Science Educator
* Dr Henry M. Morris, Hydrologist
* Dr John D. Morris, Geologist
* Dr Len Morris, Physiologist
* Dr Graeme Mortimer, Geologist
* Prof. Hee-Choon No, Nuclear Engineering
* Dr Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
* Dr David Oderberg, Philosopher
* Prof. John Oller, Linguistics
* Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
* Dr John Osgood, Medical Practitioner
* Dr Charles Pallaghy, Botanist
* Dr Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology)
* Dr David Pennington, Plastic Surgeon
* Prof. Richard Porter
* Dr John Rankin, Cosmologist
* Dr A.S. Reece, M.D.
* Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
* Dr Jung-Goo Roe, Biology
* Dr David Rosevear, Chemist
* Dr Jonathan D. Sarfati, Physical chemist / spectroscopist
* Dr Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist:
* Dr Ian Scott, Educator
* Dr Saami Shaibani, Forensic physicist
* Dr Young-Gi Shim, Chemistry
* Prof. Hyun-Kil Shin, Food Science
* Dr Mikhail Shulgin, Physics
* Dr Emil Silvestru, Geologist/karstologist
* Dr Roger Simpson, Engineer
* Dr Harold Slusher, Geophysicist
* Dr Andrew Snelling , Geologist
* Prof. Man-Suk Song, Computer Science
* Prof. James Stark , Assistant Professor of Science Education
* Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
* Dr Esther Su, Biochemistry
* Dr Charles Taylor, Linguistics
* Dr Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
* Dr Lyudmila Tonkonog, Chemistry/Biochemistry
* Dr Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
* Dr Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
* Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
* Dr Joachim Vetter, Biologist
* Dr Tas Walker, Mechanical Engineer and Geologist
* Dr Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
* Dr Keith Wanser, Physicist
* Dr Noel Weeks, Ancient Historian (also has B.Sc. in Zoology)
* Dr A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
* Dr Carl Wieland, Medical doctor
* Dr Lara Wieland, Medical doctor
* Dr Clifford Wilson, Psycholinguist and archaeologist
* Dr Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
* Dr Bryant Wood, Creationist Archaeologist
* Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics
* Dr Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
* Dr Ick-Dong Yoo, Genetics
* Dr Sung-Hee Yoon, Biology
* Dr Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
* Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography
* Dr Henry Zuill, Biology
Not really, no.
What *is* interesting, however, is that they made their contributions to science by laying aside whatever creationist views they may have had, and looking for how things could occur naturally. Kepler, for example, didn't try to "explain" planetary motion by saying, "the planets move as they do because God wants them to" -- he found the natural law by which they abide, and worked out the natural consequences of that law as it influences the natural motions of orbiting bodies.
It's also interesting to note that Newton, for example, was both a brilliant scientist and a zealously religious man. The work he did in science and math was without peer when he analyzed things based on their natural behavior and/or pure math aspects, and have greatly benefited mankind -- what is less well known is that he also devoted at least as many years of his time studying the Bible and writing his views of religion, and also dabbled in the mysticism of alchemy. And yet, despite his long efforts in these supernatural and mystical endeavors, he produced no breakthroughs of benefit to mankind, no "science of God", no "religious technology", or anything of lasting or even notable value.
Which of the areas of Newton's interest, then, was the one which was most fruitful, and how much greater would have been his contribution to mankind if he had spent *less* time frittering around on the others?
Was Newton a boon to science *because* he was a creationist -- or in spite of it?
OK, let's just consider the modern period.
Your list:
The Modern Period
* Dr Clifford Burdick, Geologist
* George Washington Carver (18641943) Inventor
* L. Merson Davies (18901960) Geology; Paleontology
* Douglas Dewar (18751957) Ornithologist
* Howard A. Kelly (18581943) Gynecology
* Paul Lemoine (18781940) Geology
* Dr Frank Marsh, Biology
* Dr John Mann, Agriculturist, biological control pioneer
* Edward H. Maunder (18511928) Astronomy
* William Mitchell Ramsay (18511939) Archeologist
* William Ramsay (18521916) Isotopic chemistry, Element transmutation
* Charles Stine (18821954) Organic Chemist
* Dr Arthur Rendle-Short (18851955) Surgeon
* Sir Cecil P. G. Wakeley (18921979) Surgeon
* Dr Larry Butler, Biochemist
* Prof. Verna Wright, Rheumatologist (deceased 1997)
* Arthur E. Wilder-Smith (19151995) Three science doctorates; a creation science pioneer
(Clearly, you have been spending some time putting this together).
Now, my list, off the top of my head:
Einstein
Dirac
Schroedinger
Heisenberg
Feynman
Weiskopf
Bethe
Bohr
Rutherford
See any difference??
OK, lets work through it.
First, If I spent some time, I could make a list much longer than yours.
Second, I don't recognize anyone on your list. They are not leading scientists. OTOH, I hope you recognize at least one or two from my list.
And yet, you seem to feel these are the poeple that created "modern science"??
You can pull lots of names with Ph.Ds. Well, there are hundreds of thousands of us. Of course, you can find a couple of hundred nut cases. But your notion that these people created "modern science" is a joke. Not one is a recognized leader. Or, at least I don't recognize any of them after reviewing your lists.
For all I know, they got their Ph.D.s from a mail order house.
BTW, where did you get your Ph.D???
Fair question.
A couple of points. There are other aspects to the definition of science. First, it must be an unbiased estimator. Second, the inference from a test must be an absolute minimum.
What is NOT an aspect of science is that it must be correct. The classical example is Newtons "laws" of motion; all of which are essentially untrue except in the limit of zero velocity.
The big bang theory clearly meets this standard. It is measurable from the Hubble law of expansion, which is consistent from simple geometry with an explosion. However, the stronger argument is the cosmic microwave background. That background is entirely consistent with the Hubble expansion, the Hubble expansion time, and all of quantum electrodynamics and quantum mechanics. The reason is that you have to use quantum theory to calculate the point at which the radiation background decoupled from the plasma of the early universe.
The point is, two entirely different measures give exactly the same answer, even though they are not related.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.