Posted on 02/07/2005 9:41:57 PM PST by quidnunc
Well, they definitely have plenty of wine with that crow. The last I heard, they were pouring it in the sewers. Boycotts work.
They are in need of a reality check.
Sounds more like Scrappleface to me. Unless there's more than a buck in it, Germany would not offer to be doing anything.
The issue goes far beyond Iraq. The level of anti-American hatred that one hears from the European press has reached new heights. It is not rational or just. Europeans say that the United States is fundamentally an evil regime, that the US is worse than a mass murdering thug like Saddam Hussein, that the United Nations should NEVER enforce its resolutions with force, that the United States has to be seen as an enemy in a Bismarckian "multipolar" world rather than seen as an ally, that if eastern European countries dare to agree with the United States on a foreign policy issue then they are "not well brought up" ("ils ne sont pas bien eleves") and "have missed a good opportunity to shut up", as M. Chirac so memorably said, that any United States policy has to be opposed, regardless of the merits, solely because it is the United States that takes the position, that Palestinian terrorism is to be excused, that dictators like the ayatollahs of Iran, Castro of Cuba and the Communists of China are to be coddled, that Islamist terrorists and their Moslem supporters are to be appeased, that the President of the United States is to be excoriated because he is -- gasp -- a Christian believer, which of course is not allowed in Europe to those in power (see what happened to Buttiglione). I have always been a great student and admirer of European history and culture, because it forms the basis for our own, but the past two years have perhaps irrevocably soured me on Europe and Europeans as they are now. I see it as a decadent civilization wallowing in irrational anti-American hatred and with a death wish to be absorbed in a worldwide sharia law caliphate.
"Nobody here wants the US to fail on their effort to stabilize the Iraq now that the war took place."
You are very mistaken, my friend. The European and American far left has been very clear that they want the Americans to fail, and, furthermore, they are supporting the terrorists over freedom. I will never forgive nor forget the sign I saw being carried in a protest march that said, "We support the troops when they kill their officers." The signage carried by the European left was far more distastful.
At this point, less and less Americans are interested in German and French points of view. You still see things through the old paradigm of US / European relations. What you need to realize is that, while your view may have not changed, the way Americans view France and Germany HAS CHANGED. There is no longer good will between us.
We do not trust the German government. We believe that Germany and France conspired to organize other nations against our efforts. We believe that Germany is only motivated by $$ just as Germany and France were corrupted by the Oil for Food money. We believe that now, because things are looking up in Iraq, Germany is eager to cash in as opposed to providing actual help. Thanks, but no thanks. Germans are not welcome as far as I am concerned.
In short - We no longer view Germany as an ally.
"What you need to realize is that, while your view may have not changed, the way Americans view France and Germany HAS CHANGED."
Americans used to be able to except European anti-American views because they seemed superficial. The relationship was always easy to repair, but not this time. The way leaders used the press and membership to the EU to organize people and governments against us was the final straw.
European leaders used Iraq to build up the EU. Not only that but leaders in France and Germany said that the EU is going to stand alone against the U.S. in their new multi-polar world.
The U.S. government and the EU governments can say anything they want about being allies and friends, but I will still remember what they did and the things they said. The EU can go to H#!!.
Holtz
JeffersonRepublic.com
Would you like to touch my Monkey????
We heard all this same crap from Europe when Reagan was in the White House.
The truth of the matter is that there exists in European intellectual circles a large and vociferous group of people who were rooting for the other side during the Cold War and have not ceased to carry on that conflict by every verbal means to hand. They are bitter, resentful, and hateful, and are still in ascendancy within their communities despite their patron state having assumed a perch on the ash-heap of history.
These people are irreconcilable enemies, and there is no penalty whatever and every reward for them being so. As long as EU policies follow their dictates we are going to continue to have this problem.
There is some truth in your post for both sites of the atlantic. I think the disagreement about iraq lead to a lot of unhelpfull comments.
Mr Chiraq is a gaullist so he truely has no real warm feelings about the US. I also don´t like his retoric about the new european members especially poland. But the EU is an difficult issue. If you take poland you can not start a membership with two vetos on important topics and no will for compromise and then saying at the same time you are the trojan horse of the US in the EU. So that is in the same way not very clever from my perspective but these problems are history now.
Mr Buttiliogne had no problems because he is a beliving catholic as i am. He got problems because he wants women to serve in the house and kitchen and belives beeing homosexual is a crime and so he was not the right person for this job in the eyes of the majority of the EU parliament that´s democracy.
In the end there are so many topics where the EU and the US work together and these disagreements will go away in the same way they arrive. On both sites some people have to come down and get a little more rational and the visit of Mrs. Rice was a good example that thinks get normal.
Someone posted here that the focus of the US is no longer Europe so that oppinions of germans etc. don´t count.
I think that is true and a very good archivement because the cold war is over and europe is no longer a problem.
So the attention can shift to ohter regions. The same is true the other way round. For german foreign policy building the EU is the number one priority and everything around it like close relations to Russia etc.
So the transatlantic relation are perhabs not so important anymore but there are no reasons why the relations shouldn´t be friendly and warm as they were and in the personal contact to americans i see no change.
Who is "we"? You and the mouse in your pocket? Secretary Rice has called Germany a good friend of the United States - not in 2001, not in 2002, but last Friday!
We will be watching to see whether they exert any pressure and help form a united front against the crazy mullahs' nuclear ambitions. We will be watching whom they attack rhetorically, Bush or Iran. We will see whether Chirac really wants rapprochement and whether Schroeder wants to be useful.
The nice diplomatic words of Condi Rice last week will mean little next to the realities which will be played out in short time.
I hope you're right, but when the majority of the German people think the US is worse than tyrants like Saddam Hussein or the theocratic Iranian regime or terrorists like Al Qaeda, then I don't see much room for friendship with Germans. Friends simply do not assume the worst intentions or character about others without any grounds whatsoever. As for Buttiglione, he did not say homosexuality was a crime, but was barred solely because he said homosexual activity was SINFUL. Sin is a religious and moral concept, not a criminal legal concept. He specifically said that it is not a crime. Buttiglione was treated as a second class citizen and barred from public office solely for his religious and moral beliefs. People have a right in a free society to believe and state publicly that homosexual activity is sinful. Of course in Sweden a pastor has been jailed for making such statements. That is not freedom of speech -- that is totalitarian thought control, and it is spreading across Europe and Canada. I hope our constitutional protections of free speech and freedom of religion in this country will be strong enough to protect this country from this anti-freedom scourge.
What was that German term I saw on an earlier post this am? Befrokket? It means perplexed. Love the word even if I've got it wrong. (Should have written it down.)
Kerry would have dragged the US into the UN so fast our heads would still be spinning. Iraq would be imploding, we'd be facing higher taxes and Hill would be busy drawing up a big list of stuff to take away from us.
Hehehehehehehe.
How conveeeeeeeeeenient.
Emphasis on con
I havn´t seen any poll where a majority of germans think the US is worse than Hussein or Al Queda.
It is true that the sympathy for the US under the Bush administration went down and that more than 90% of the germans had prefer kerry as president. But the iraq issue is not so important anymore and so this will change in my view and i never felt anti american feelings here.
The case of Buttiglione. I have read an interview with him and he was very smart and sympathic there but i realy don´t think that his belivings was the problem. I am an active christian (catholic) and religion pro or contra don´t play a role in european politics. The problem in my view was that Baroso and the parliament ( espeacialy the left site) had a problem with each other and as the liberals democrats join the left parties in their resisitens on several commisioners ( not only Buttiglione) Baroso had to change his cabinet.
So the EU parliament shows for the first time it´s power and in my view it was a great moment for the EU.
The case of homosexuality. It is difficult i know that my church is against it and it is seen as sin but my uncle is gay and he lives with his partner for now more than 20 years and he married him 2 years ago. In germany gay marriage is legal for 5 or six years now and i support that. It was a realy emotional moment see him at that day on that celebration.
"Secretary Rice has called Germany a good friend of the United States - not in 2001, not in 2002, but last Friday!"
"We" are all the Americans who agree with me - and believe me, there are millions of us.
As far as Dr. Rice is concerned, she's a diplomat, what do you want her to say? That Schroeder and Chirac are scum? She has to speak the language of diplomacy. I don't. I am free to say what I really think. She isn't.
I think we've been through this before Michael81Dus on another thread and it is nice to "speak" to you again. Let me repeat my basic position so we understand each other - I don't trust the German or French governments and am not particularly interested in being their "friends" regardless of what my government is compelled to say. Our nations may do business, we may have contacts, but any feelings of "friendship" simply don't exist anymore.
Germany will help out in Iraq because it is in her economic interests to do so. Just like Germany dealt with and supported Saddam when he was in power because it was in Germany's economic interest to do so. Let's have no illusions that the German government cares one bit about these people's freedom or democracy in that region. If the Islamo-fascists came to power, Germany would be more than happy to do business with them too. Remember who sold the chemical plants to Saddam that he used to make the poison gas that he used on the Kurds - Made in Germany.
Please, let's not pretend.
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