Islam, Orthodoxy, and Protestants

Bridegroom Press ^ | Steve Kellmeyer

[skellmeyer]

Roughly half of America dislike everything George Bush says, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t the President of the United States. This is a point too few people keep in mind. Take, for instance, the example of Stas, a very nice Orthodox man, who read my recent piece on concerning the Muslim reporter who implicitly threatened to kill me and nuke America. He thought the piece excellent except for my statement that the Pope was the head of Christianity: “As for the Pope, 1 billion various protestants and 300 million Orthodox don't follow his words and that's half of Christianity.” To keep things honest, a Mormon and a Protestant also voiced essentially this disagreement.

I could have pointed out, as I do here, that his statement proves nothing about either the Pope or the President, but I demurred. Instead, I merely pointed out that there are no major theological differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, apart from a minor theological point concerning the generation of the Holy Spirit and his aforementioned quibble concerning the Pope. He insisted I was wrong, and in attempting to demonstrate his case, he inadvertently made a connection between Orthodoxy and Islam that I had read about, but never really seen in action before.

[k2blader]

I was wondering if there are really folks out there who would say to their wives, "Honey, let's have sex, not so much because it feels good but because we could make a baby!"

[B-Chan]

Our only defense is to focus on Christ's teachings.

I agree. But who gets to decide which teachings are authentically those of Christ and which are not? In other words, what is the Earthly source of infallible teaching?

[investigateworld]

I think this is where the Holy Spirit comes in. If one approaches their Bible following prayers and leaving aside earthly desires, I believe it is a Work of the Spirit.

[HarleyD]

"I just do not believe Muslims view "priesthood" as Protestants view it. To bad, it's the truth."

You certainly have a warped perspective on Protestantism to make a blanket statement such as this.

[Elsie]

Isaiah 22

 

 15.  This is what the Lord, the LORD Almighty, says: "Go, say to this steward, to Shebna, who is in charge of the palace:
 16.  What are you doing here and who gave you permission to cut out a grave for yourself here, hewing your grave on the height and chiseling your resting place in the rock?
 17.  "Beware, the LORD is about to take firm hold of you and hurl you away, O you mighty man.
 18.  He will roll you up tightly like a ball and throw you into a large country. There you will die and there your splendid chariots will remain-- you disgrace to your master's house!
 19.  I will depose you from your office, and you will be ousted from your position.

 20.  "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah.
 21.  I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
 22.  I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
 23.  I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat  of honor for the house of his father.
 24.  All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots--all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.
 25.  "In that day," declares the LORD Almighty, "the peg driven into the firm place will give way; it will be sheared off and will fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut down." The LORD has spoken.

 

 

Sure don't sound like your Pope to me!

[Elsie]

But you need to produce a teaching document from Leo in which he says you can sell or buy people out of purgatory.

Is there a 'teaching document' that says there IS a 'purgatory'?

[OldCorps]

bump

[Elsie]

NIV Matthew 16:13-23

 

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" 

 

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."  

 

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 

Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ. 

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

 

Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!" 

 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

---

 

Since there is no 'real' key; but merely a 'virtual' one (or set: the Scripture says, "KEYS") what shall we make of the fact that Jesus was talking to ALL the disciples here; and impetuous PETER jumps in with an answer, the question becomes:

 

"To whom is the

you spoken about refer?"

 

Is it ONLY to Peter; or is it to ALL of them?

[hosepipe]

[ I disagree - your statement on the Roman Catholic Church is based on ignorance on the facts regarding Church history and theology. ]

You must surely be wrong about other things too...

[ Your last statement is very much closer to Islamic thought than most in terms of your view of organized religion. ]

No, is isn't, I know Islam from the Hadiths(source of the Qu'ran) and from the Qu'ran itself.. Organized religion, all of them, are clubs, and you know it.. I know about "christian" religion even more.. I have a question for you...

What "IS" a Christian.?....
Please don't parse.. just spit it out..
Parseing is so, so, "unchristian".. in the patrony of it..

[Destro]

Reads like some Protestant views on the priesthood to me (link @ #135):

"In Islam there’s no church as an institution as such, there’s no clergy. Islam doesn’t accept the notion that a particular group of people can claim for themselves to be representatives of God on earth. The entire human race is regarded, in a sense, as representatives of God on earth."

[Destro]

You have a warped perception of what I said - up above I wrote in several posts that Islam has more of a superficial resemblance to SOME Protestantism and Mormonism traits than it does -as the author of this little article states - to Orthodox Christianity.

[Destro]

Well the Greeks who created the term "Christian" and codified the Greek New Testament for the rest of the world should know - join their "Ecclesia" and find out what "Christian" means.

[HarleyD]

My apologies. I should read the posts more closely.

[Elsie]

 

Is Peter the 'rock'?

 

---

NIV Matthew 4:18-19
 18.  As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
 19.  "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

 

NIV Matthew 8:14
 14.  When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.

 

NIV Matthew 10:1-2
 1.  He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil  spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
 2.  These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

 

NIV Matthew 14:28-31
 28.  "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
 29.  "Come," he said.   Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
 30.  But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
 31.  Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

 

NIV Matthew 15:13-16
 13.  He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
 14.  Leave them; they are blind guides.  If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
 15.  Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
 16.  "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

 

---

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'

BEFORE the following verses came along.....

---

NIV Matthew 16:13-18
 13.  When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
 14.  They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
 15.  "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
 16.  Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,  the Son of the living God."
 17.  Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
 18.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades  will not overcome it.

 19.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

---

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
 4.  and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

 

NIV Luke 6:48
 48.  He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.

 

NIV Romans 9:33
 33.  As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

 

 

 

NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
 4.  As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
 5.  you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
 6.  For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 7.  Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
 8.  and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

---

But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???

---

 

NIV Genesis 49:24-25
24.  But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
 25.  because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty,  who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.

 

NIV Numbers 20:8
 8.  "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
 4.  He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
 15.  Jeshurun  grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
 18.  You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
 30.  How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
 31.  For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.

 

NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
 2.  "There is no one holy  like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
 2.  He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
 3.  my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn  of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
 32.  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
 47.  "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!

 

NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
 3.  The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
 4.  he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'

 

NIV Psalms 18:2
 2.  The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn  of my salvation, my stronghold.

 

NIV Psalms 18:31
 31.  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

 

NIV Psalms 18:46
 46.  The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!

 

NIV Psalms 19:14
 14.  May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

 

NIV Psalms 28:1

 

 1.  To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.

 

NIV Psalms 31:2-3
 2.  Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
 3.  Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.

 

NIV Psalms 42:9
 9.  I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"

 

NIV Psalms 62:2
 2.  He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.

 

NIV Psalms 62:6
 6.  He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.

 

NIV Psalms 62:7
 7.  My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.

 

NIV Psalms 71:3
 3.  Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.

 

NIV Psalms 78:35
 35.  They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.

 

NIV Psalms 89:26
 26.  He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'

 

NIV Psalms 92:14-15
 14.  They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
 15.  proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."

 

NIV Psalms 95:1
 1.  Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

 

NIV Psalms 144:1
 1.  Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

 

NIV Isaiah 17:10
 10.  You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

 

NIV Isaiah 26:4
 4.  Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.

 

NIV Isaiah 30:29
29.  And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

 

NIV Isaiah 44:8
 8.  Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." 

 

NIV Habakkuk 1:12
 12.  O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

---

.....No other rock.............

 

And now you know the Biblical position!

[Destro]

My point was this article is not very well thought out and does a disservice to the Christian groups mentioned when he compared them to Islam - the comparisons are only superficial.

[A.J.Armitage]

You changed the subject. And you're still wrong, because Protestants do have institutional churches. Obviously the organization varies based on the ecclesiology. Mine has a plurality of elders. You have not demonstrated that Islam has a priesthood of the believer because you would need to show they have a concept of "priesthood" in the first place. Maybe the Shia have something comparable, but I'm pretty sure the Sunni don't. I don't think either has anything like the Levitical priesthood.

[Destro]

I said some not all and did not change any subject. There is no priesthood in Islam - only religious scholars and prayer leaders - sort of like in Judaism.

[hosepipe]

[ join their "Ecclesia" and find out what "Christian" means. ]

The greek word "ecclesia" means one thing....
The English word "church" means quite another...

And jesus was not Jesus' name... nor was Jehova; God's name..

Its all very complicated to the indoctrinated..

[Destro]

When you can read the New Testament in the original Greek let me know.

[investigateworld]

We missed your thoughts yesterday.