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Immigration Reform - So Few Words, So Much Meaning
My Own Thoughts | 02/02/2005 | doughtyone

Posted on 02/02/2005 11:06:49 PM PST by DoughtyOne

There is a fine line that one should walk these days, when discussing the Presidency of George W. Bush. I say this because I firmly believe that the President is a good man. I believe that he is truly a Christian. Unlike a recent occupant of the White House, he does love and honor not only his wife, but his children, his parents, his extended family, his supporters and his God.

President Bush was handed a difficult task, in September of 2001. He has met that task head on, and in a number of ways, has provided an excellent response. His directives concerning Afghanistan and Iraq have been masterful. I am so glad that he had the foresight to appoint Donald Rumsfeld his Secretary of Defense, and Condoliza Rice his National Security Advisor. Both these individuals are sharp as tacks, and have obviously contributed towards the goals the President set for the nation, and seems to be achieving. Threading a fine line between being too receptive to those who wanted him to hold off some military moves, and taking a harder line suggested by the other end of the spectrum, President Bush seems well on his way to liberating for generations to come, the inhabitants of two nations in the middle-east.

There have been times when I wondered if the President were doing the right thing at certain points. This last Sunday, I along with others were pleasantly surprised at how well things have come together. The Iraqi people went to the polls in great numbers. Even those who had wished the President well in his efforts in Iraq, were relieved that the elections were so successful, I among them.

When it comes to the war in Iraq, when it comes to standing up against the leaders of Europe, when it comes to defining the path that we will take to repair Social Security, the President has my full support. I am very glad to have someone in the White House who advances policies on these issues, the way he does. His talk on these and a number of other issues is like sweet music to my ears. How sad I am that I must now talk about the fingernails on the chalkboard issue of our time, illegal immigration.

The President for all his power, for all his positives and all his good intentions, is still a man. He is a man that has many fine qualities. He is also a man that can and sometimes does make a mistake. I consider his desires to change certain aspects of our immigration policies, to be a colossal misjudgment. Unlike Iraq where I felt very uneasy, but avoided for the most part challenging the President's actions early on at Fallujah, and a few other places, I can see no room for compromise concerning the ongoing invasion of the United States.

This evening the President once again addressed the issue of immigration. Once again the meaning was crystal clear to those of us who disagree with him on that subject. Before I continue I want to be clear about something. I address this issue, because this is the issue where I find fault with the President. I don't do this because I am happy to have one issue to disagree with him on. I am very unhappy that I have to address this issue. I shouldn't have to at all, but this issue is important enough that I am going to address it continuously until the issue is resolved, the policies I cannot endorse are changed to protect this nation. That should be our overriding concern here. It is mine.

Here is what President Bush said this evening. This is the way I see the issues he raised.

America's immigration system is also outdated - unsuited to the needs of our economy and to the values of our country.

There are three issues in this charged sentence. I do believe that there are areas for improvement regarding the guidelines and procedures that govern Visas and short term visitors to the United States. I have no problem with the President trying to get a handle on who is entering our nation, how long they stay and whether they actually go home or not. This is not just an issue with Mexico. It's an issue that confronts us across the board with all who enter this nation. In this, I can support the President. I believe he is wise to address this component of the immigration issue.

Where the President and I part ways, is when he implies that our economy can't meet it's needs without poor, uneducated, unable to be financialy responsible for themselves, men and women from foreign countries. If the President were addressing the problems of the world's poor, I might be more inclined to listen to his proposals, but he isn't. This isn't about the world's poor. It's about one nation's poor. Yes, illegal immigration has an multi-national component to it, but it is primarily one nation that is flooding ours with it's citizens. I can't help but address this fact. It's true and so this one nation is addressed more than any other, for it's sordid practices.

When it comes to the issue of values, it is clear the United States is second to none when it comes to philanthropy. Our citizens give medical, educational, housing and other forms of help to the citizens of Mexico in Mexico. Physicians, nurses, teachers, aid workers, volunteers have been conducting mission work in Mexico for as long as I can remember. This represents our values. We are a good-hearted people who wish the best for the Mexican people. We gain no pleasure from seeing their national leaders abuse them, and I am firmly convinced this is the true condition of Mexico.

Values are not one-dimensional, and they don't exist in a vacuum. Extending a helping hand to millions of new Mexican poor each year is an admirable goal. The question is, how do you achieve that? Do you allow them to pour across your frontier in an endless stream that creates instant slums where ever they go? Do you allow them to swamp your communities, health care and education resources? Do you allow them to soak up tens of billions of dollars of funding that citizens have every right to expect to be spent on their local community and state needs? The answers to these question are a resounding no.

If I want to help someone out, I dig in my pocket and donate the appropriate amount based on what I can afford, what the actual need is. If you were to do that with my money it wouldn't be right. When the government does it, it's not right either. In fact, it would show a complete avoidance of reasoned values to do such a thing. Please don't talk to me about this nations values, while suggesting that I and hundreds of millions of other U.S. Citizens will have to hand over our hospitals, schools, infrastructure, and even a portion of our futures, so this can be facilitated.

We should not be content with laws that punish hardworking people who want only to provide for their families, and deny businesses willing workers, and invite chaos at our border.

These sentences are some of the most charged sentences I've ever seen. At once they are complex, a misdirecting slight of hand, and dishonest.

Mr. President, your fellow citizens are hard working people who are trying to provide for their families. What about folks like us? Why do you seek to punish us so that others can get services for free that we cannot? Why should non-citizens get free health care while we have to pay through the ying-yang to get it? Does it really seem like good values to you, to allow businesses to pay sub-scale so that illegals can work, when I and my fellow citizens have to pay so much for their health care, education, and other assorted freebies? Why should we subsidize these businesses this way? Does it seem like a good idea to flood this nation with people who have only a 4th to 8th grade education? How will they put a roof over their head on minimum wage? Who will feed clothe and house them? Who will pay for the deliveries of their children? What community can thrive with tens of thousands of these poor people in their midst? We are talking about instant slums across this nation. Some localities will be besieged in greater numbers than others. Where is your compassion for them?

Mr. President, there is only one group causing chaos at our border. It is the illegal alien who has shown themselves unwilling to respect the laws of our nation. When you frame the debate the way you have, you simply side with them. And I might add, you side with them against us. Why? What did we do to deserve this?

It is time for an immigration policy that permits temporary guest workers to fill jobs Americans will not take, that rejects amnesty, that tells us who is entering and leaving our country, and that closes the border to drug dealers and terrorists.

Mr. President, I'll make a deal with you. If you respect me, I'll respect you. Please do not insult my intelligence by claiming these will be guest workers. At this very minute, you are loathe to send anyone back to their nation of origin. How can you expect me to believe that in six years, you'll be sending anyone back to the nation of their origin then? You know as well as I do that these guest workers will bring families that we, not they, will pay for. They will develop homes here. They will invest years of their lives here. Who are you trying to kid? You're not going to send even one of these people home. Instead you will be asking to up the quota.

Here's another question for you Mr. President. Is it fair to the other citizens of the world to have millions of Mexican citizens enter our nation through expanded immigration quotas, while they have to go through all the same procedures they always have? Would it be a good idea to open up our guest worker program to all the world's poor? Should we allow millions from every poor nation around the world, to enter our nation each year? If not, then how do we justify it for one nation?

Here's a problem you haven't seemed to consider. If we allow two million worker permits per year, do you think that will end illegal immigration? It won't. Those who can't get in under any quota you set, will continue to come over the border as they always have. You'll immediately have a worker entry program, the continued illegal immigration on top of that, and the folks who were here when it all started. We're looking at thirty million people within five years. We have ten to fifteen now. We'll let another million or two in each year legally. We'll still have illegal immigration. And while all this goes on, we'll still have hospitals and schools inundated at a rate double what it has been.

Where is the solution in this Mr. President? What will it resolve? We'll have infrastructure crumbling faster than before, health care and education already on the ropes, placed on life support.

Illegal immigration will still see millions of undocumenteds coming across. Gang and terrorist group members among them.

You see Mr. President, you would have to close the borders to illegal immigrants for this plan to work. Unfortunately, you have refused to do that. In light of that your plan will never work. This nation will just be torn apart one neighborhood at a time at an even faster rate than it has been, until someone finally turns out the lights.

I sure wish I didn't have to address this issue. This plan doesn't make sense on any level. With that last comment, I'll just concede that folks in Washington won't be able to resist it. What a sad day for America it will be, when this plan hits the ground running.


TOPICS: Editorial; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: aliens; borders; illegal; immigrantlist; immigration; immigrationreform; reform; stateoftheunion
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To: LowCountryJoe
There's no other way to put it!

Nonsense. There are infinite ways to put it without breaking out the race card, infinite. Just for starters, they CRIMINALS.

The president is proposing that we find out who the immigrants are, collect information on them, and then make allow them to become guest workers if they choose...if they choose not to, then presumably we deport them.

These CRIMINALS don't obey the LAW today, but poof, tomorrow they will, more nonsense. We've been debating this claptrap for many many months here now.

Many of you FReepers on this very thread complain that immigrants (not just the illegal ones) drive down our wages and take our jobs but then you simultaneously bitch when business OWNERS take their capital and move it into another country, creating jobs there.

Every business owner that wishes to pack their bags and move overseas in pursuit of the bottom line has my blessing. It just leaves me more room to flourish. Don't look back I say.

It appears on the surface that the outcry against this is motivated by selfishness, anger, and a whole lot of xenophobia - none of which are feelings that a Christian in a state of grace should have.

Pure supposition and more race baiting. Your agenda is beginning to show through, again.

Yet, many of you who express these things are the most vocal about your Christianity.

I'll pull a bayourod on you. I defy you to find in my posting history where I have divulged my religous faith or lack thereof, anywhere anytime. I'll send you one (1) fine Cigar if you can.

My suggestion is that you should pray more for the intangible things such as wisdom and less for the tangible things (emphasis should be placed on giving thanks to Him for what you do have too).

Sorry, I'm not open to suggestions from outsiders in regards to my religous beliefs, or lack thereof, I'll take it up with the Man himself when the time arises.

I suppose now that I'll be accused of faith baiting next?!

Your words, not mine but if the shoe fits. Good day! Blackbird.

161 posted on 02/03/2005 4:43:07 PM PST by BlackbirdSST
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To: DoughtyOne
Well, you're still a good person in spite of being wrong in your consideration.
162 posted on 02/03/2005 4:45:27 PM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: Bikers4Bush
That's your defense mechanism, we all know it.

If I may be so bold, it's not a defense mechanism, it's an agenda. Blackbird.

163 posted on 02/03/2005 4:47:39 PM PST by BlackbirdSST
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To: CONSERVE
"The key word in this would be our as in the United States of America "

Shouldn't be. schools are a state and local matter. I'll let your schools alone if you'll let mine alone.

164 posted on 02/03/2005 5:18:50 PM PST by bayourod (Unless we get over 40% of the Hispanic vote in 2008, President Hillary will take all your guns away.)
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To: Marine Inspector
"Mexicans are approximately 95% of the illegal population "

Somewhere else I saw 50%.

165 posted on 02/03/2005 5:20:38 PM PST by bayourod (Unless we get over 40% of the Hispanic vote in 2008, President Hillary will take all your guns away.)
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To: monkeywrench
And many of you on the other side, complain about subsidies to keep jobs here, and we have no right to a job, yet you don't see the inconsistancy. Taxpayers subsidizing your cheap labor, and illegals have no right to a job.

Just so that you know and so that we're clear, I'm not one of the ones who advocate for illegal immigration. But I am a so-called free trade advocate. Many of the people posting on this very thread are so-called "fair" trade advocates...what-ever-the-hell "fair" trade is supposed to mean.

166 posted on 02/03/2005 5:52:09 PM PST by LowCountryJoe (Many things in moderation, some with conservation, few in immoderation, all because of liberation!)
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To: BlackbirdSST
Every business owner that wishes to pack their bags and move overseas in pursuit of the bottom line has my blessing. It just leaves me more room to flourish. Don't look back I say.

I made an assumption about you! I had thought that you were of the Willie Green ilk that showed continuous disdain for free market capitalism. I had you pegged wrong; sorry 'bout that!

167 posted on 02/03/2005 5:56:40 PM PST by LowCountryJoe (Many things in moderation, some with conservation, few in immoderation, all because of liberation!)
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To: 1_Inch_Group

There are a few more FR polls on immigration here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/poll


168 posted on 02/03/2005 11:49:27 PM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: bayourod

"This is just one example of many problems that people blame on Bush instead of their local politicians who should have solved it."

Well, nice try.

Is GWB the leader of our country or not?

Does he have the balls to set the tone so the sock-puppets in the Republican Party will follow his lead?
(No, obviously).

Does GWB have a moral obligation to give these gutless wonders (Republican congress critters and Republican Senators) a boot in the ass every now and again?

Yes, he does.


169 posted on 02/04/2005 5:32:51 AM PST by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: bayourod

"It's impossible to seal the borders."


Maybe impossible to seal 100% of the borders, I'll concede that to you....but we SURE can do a better job than this laughable "homeland security" crapola now.

GWB has no damned right to parade our troops around the world and let them get the crap shot out of them while leaving our own borders vunerable.

That's pure common sense, something in which you seem to be in short supply of.


170 posted on 02/04/2005 5:35:57 AM PST by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: bayourod

Please go peddle your tripe somewhere else, ok?

You are so pitiful posts are so far from the truth on this matter, every post you make is just literary pollution on this BB.


"And wages for white collar jobs or skilled licensed jobs are not brought down by wages of garbage collectors or gardners."

You're either stupid, or a lier, you pick , ok?

How about the wages being driven down in the trades, like Carpentry / homebuilding. How about the wages being driven down in Automotive repair, Auto Body repair, Heating / HVAC?

" Productive employees don't soak up funds, they are the engine that drives the businesses that pay the taxes ..."

Bull......

How about the scumbag tax cheats who hire illegals to side-step paying their fair share of taxes. This leaves legit business owners such as myself to shoulder an UNFAIR burden of taxation.


"Why risk a major recession by closing businesses or forcing them to relocate over seas."

You are delusional, pure and simple.




171 posted on 02/04/2005 5:43:10 AM PST by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: bayourod

"People who want to blame Bush for all of their local problems instead of the local politicians who could solve them, are just looking for reasons to blame Bush."


Well, he HAS sworn an oath to protect our borders from foreign invaders.

Have you conveniently forgotten this?


172 posted on 02/04/2005 5:45:32 AM PST by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: bayourod

"Which wages? Gardeners? Roofers? Car Washers? Immigrants coming here for minimum wage jobs don't drive down wages of anyone except people in those same minimum wage jobs, not doctors and lawyers."

Ok, you just proved to everyone on this BB how ignorant you are to what's rerally going on.

Right now...illegals have driven the wages down in framing houses in CT from $18.00 per hour...to about $8.00 Now a moron would THINK this is a good thing....where-as in reality..... now you can't make a living framing houses in Ct anymore unless you are shacked up with 15 other people living in a hobbit house...like the illegals do. This also has the effect of driving legitimate business men (contractors) out of work. They are either forced to hire illegals...or are run out of business....being under bid at every job. The State loses tax revenue. The government loses tax revenue. The savings are rarely passed on to the homeowner. And.....since you've concluded in one of your previous posts that "we can not seal the borders"....what do you think will happen when these "illegals" are made legal?

Right. The scumbag employees will fire their asses off the job site....and hire more illegals.

It amases me you are even able to tie your shoes by yourself in the morning...or...perhaps you have an illegal do that for you.


173 posted on 02/04/2005 5:54:01 AM PST by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: bayourod

"President Bush is addressing the immigration situation in the most responsible way, just as he has all other issues."

Wrong. Predident Bush is selling out the American Tradesmen and the American blue collar worker.

It's as plain as day.


174 posted on 02/04/2005 5:55:58 AM PST by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: bayourod
difference is between baby John and baby Juan?

Well --- if we need dirt cheap labor --- then why does it just have to be from Mexico? Why can't I get a Haitian guest worker. After all --- there is cheaper labor than Mexicans.

Why do you suppose this plan is with just one country that wants to dump an unlimited number of people into our country? This isn't all about getting the cheapest possible labor --- it's all about keeping the corrupt Mexican system going.

175 posted on 02/04/2005 5:59:28 AM PST by FITZ
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To: bayourod
President Bush is addressing the immigration situation in the most responsible way, just as he has all other issues.

No he is not. If he was he would tell Vicente Fox and his corrupt cohorts to fix that country up. And he would also mention just once who will be paying the costs of the guest workers ---- such as who pays their medical care and who pays to educate their families. Hint -- it's not their government and it's not their employers.

176 posted on 02/04/2005 6:03:51 AM PST by FITZ
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To: LowCountryJoe
Free trade vs. 'Fair' trade. As a Republican and a capitalist, I'm looking for some magic formula that keeps Democrats out of power. I believe and history shows when the Demos are in office, young men die in foreign wars.
By way of illustration, I offer the example of Oregon. In the last election, we voted down gay marriage, and passed a law requiring compensation when the envior-Nazis take private property using 'ecology' laws.
Yet the state by a slight percentage went for the treasonous b@stard. This is probably due to our high unemployment.
Let's face it, everyone votes their pocketbook. So find the formula that keeps people working.
177 posted on 02/04/2005 6:19:08 AM PST by investigateworld (Babies= A sure sign He hasn't given up on mankind!)
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To: BlackbirdSST

Excellent point.


178 posted on 02/04/2005 6:37:09 AM PST by Bikers4Bush (Flood waters rising, heading for more conservative ground. Vote for true conservatives!)
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To: taxed2death

"The savings are rarely passed on to the homeowner."

Especially given the quality of the work. If I'm going to be buying crap, I expect to paying a crap price for it, not a premium price.

One of the major nationwide homebuilders has a website about them from one of their customers and one of the complaints about the workmanship is that "not enough nails were used on the framing".

They sure don't build them like they used to.


179 posted on 02/04/2005 7:11:31 AM PST by brianl703 (Border crossing is a misdemeanor. So is drunk driving. Which do we have more checkpoints for?)
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To: bayourod

"schools are a state and local matter."

No Child Left Behind is a federal program, and guess who supported it?


180 posted on 02/04/2005 7:13:45 AM PST by brianl703 (Border crossing is a misdemeanor. So is drunk driving. Which do we have more checkpoints for?)
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