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Nissan Chief: Hybrid Cars Make No Sense
Reuters ^ | Sat Jan 29, 2005 07:44 PM ET

Posted on 01/31/2005 8:17:49 PM PST by newgeezer

NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - The head of Nissan Motor Co., breaking ranks with some of his leading rivals, said on Saturday that building fuel-sipping hybrid vehicles makes little sense in today's world because of their high costs.

"They make a nice story, but they're not a good business story yet because the value is lower than their costs," said Nissan Chief Executive Carlos Ghosn.

Nissan will, in fact, start manufacturing a gas-electric hybrid version of its Altima sedan for the U.S. market in 2006.

But Ghosn said the model was only intended to help Japan's second-largest automaker comply with strict fuel economy and emissions standards in states like California, not because he expects it to be a money-maker.

Nissan will license some technology for the hybrid Altima from Toyota Motor Corp., which is the world leader in hybrid production along with Honda Motor Co. Ltd.

The hybrids made by Toyota and Honda are in high demand, but production levels are still relatively small.

Toyota plans to nearly double production of its hybrid Prius car for the U.S. market this year, with production totaling some 100,000 vehicles.

Ford Motor Co. is alone among U.S. automakers in producing mass-market hybrid models; Ford recently announced plans to introduce four new models between this year and 2008.

Ghosn's comments, which are likely to draw criticism from environmental groups, came in an address to the National Automobile Dealers Association, which opened its annual convention in New Orleans on Saturday.

In his speech, he noted that only about 88,000 of the 16.9 million light vehicles sold in the United States last year were hybrids, adding that they are still considered "niche" products and something way outside the automotive mainstream.

He also poured cold water on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which many automakers see as the industry's next big technological breakthrough.

"The cost to build one fuel cell car is about $800,000. Do the math and you figure out that we will have to reduce the cost of that car by more than 95 percent in order to gain widespread marketplace acceptance," Ghosn said.

Ghosn, who is credited with a dramatic turnaround at Nissan, is poised to take over as chief executive at France's Renault SA in May.

His future role, simultaneously running operations at two major automakers, is thought to be an industry first.

Nissan -- owned 44 percent by Renault -- scored the biggest sales jump of any major car maker in the United States last year, with a 24 percent surge to 986,000 vehicles.

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© Reuters 2005


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Extended News; Japan; US: California; US: Louisiana
KEYWORDS: automakers; automobiles; autos; cars; energy; environment; honda; hybrid; hybrids; insight; nissan; prius; toyota
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To: The Coopster

Nope. Are you?


121 posted on 02/01/2005 10:37:21 PM PST by SierraWasp (al-Najr, 38, after casting a ballot for the first time in his life. "I get to say I'm human now.")
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To: Dan Evans
If that's true, if the EPA is that stupid, then they've got an omelet on their face...

It's not a matter of being stupid. The fuel economy tests are mandated by law and the testing methodology is published in the Federal Record. They can't decide to apply one test to one type of vehicle and another to another, because the selection of testing methodology is not their perogative. The test was designed to be apples-to-apples, but the auto companies figured out how to defeat the test, and designed the new generation of hybrid cars accordingly.

Congress should mandate a new test for hybrid vehicles that eliminates their artificial advantage, but that is a political football. Can you imagine the hue and cry if Congress introduced a measure that would have the effect of reducing the attractiveness of hybrids, the new darlings of the environmental movement?

Note that in other countries, where this test is not used, hybrid cars are nearly nonexistant. In Europe, where gasoline is $5.00 a gallon, the trend is toward lighter cars that burn efficiently. Only in America is the trend toward heavier, more complicated cars with all this hybrid hoo-hah.

Thus the tag-line...

122 posted on 02/02/2005 5:22:20 AM PST by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: Dan Evans
Pikcup Truck drivers aren't what I meant by "truckers", semi's tend to leave let their trucks run while they sit in diners, sleep in the cab ect. Diesels (and gas engines for that matter) don't operate efficiently when they cool down, so running them slightly above idle keeps the engine warm (I've heard that starting one burns more fuel than idling for an hour), keeps the air brake systems charged (often taking 10minutes to build pressure again), keeps fuel warm so it doesn't gel, and generates electricity for onboard systems.

As for your neighbor. Driving ANY engine at highway speeds before the oil heats up causes excess wear and tear on all of the friction surfaces (cylinders, rings, bearings, turbine bushings, ect.). Not to mention thermal stresses/strain screwing up engine geometry. This is exaggerated with larger engines, and considering your neighbor's diesel engine weighs about 1500 lbs as opposed to a 400lbs big block gas engine, the diesel has a huge thermal mass to heat up. Other than that, he's just plain inconsiderate.

2004 and later diesel pickups have vastly improved sound reduction technology (having to do with engine geometry and the injector). The diesel fueled German passenger cars have been difficult to distinguish for quite awhile. Bottom line is, these aren't the crappy stink wagons the Diesel Rabbit was.
123 posted on 02/02/2005 6:57:24 AM PST by Dead Dog
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To: The Coopster
There really isn't anything new about a gas prime mover, a bank of batteries, and an electric motor. They've been around since the first diesel electric submarines and then diesel electric locomotives. They aren't some Latest and Greatest technology.

IF they were in the slightest way suitable for highway use they would have been found in Semi's for the last 60 years. They aren't, and they won't be. This is because trucking outfits want REAL efficiency, not emotionalistic smoke blown up their skirts.

Hybrids are great for urban buses, off road vehicles, and taxi cabs. They are an inefficient waste for anything over 50mph.
124 posted on 02/02/2005 7:04:24 AM PST by Dead Dog
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To: The Coopster

The Steam Engine was replaced by a hybrid vehicle 60 years ago. Can you guess why Hybrids found a home on the tracks and not the roads?


125 posted on 02/02/2005 7:07:58 AM PST by Dead Dog
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To: newgeezer

Do the math on the price of a Toyota Corolla vs Prius. Then calculate the price diffence against the small amount of milage you gain with the Prius.

It would take you 20 years to recoup the difference.


126 posted on 02/02/2005 7:11:31 AM PST by Hammerhead
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To: WildTurkey

I've owned 4 american cars, the only one that didn't make 250K was a Chevy Chevette (read Isuzu).


127 posted on 02/02/2005 7:14:15 AM PST by Dead Dog
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To: newgeezer

I knew there was a reason I like Nissans, smart management not driving up the cost of useful cars with useless projects.


128 posted on 02/02/2005 7:14:52 AM PST by discostu (quis custodiet ipsos custodes)
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To: Boiler Plate

Forget currency float, what happens when the Chinese laborers once again prove themselves to be not good enough to make things with low error tolerance and Toyota winds up with thousands of busted hybrids on their hands? Given the quality of goods coming out of China, and the problems they've had with high tech stuff in the recent past, I have serious doubts they'll pull this one off, unless Toyota's plant is so automated the only personel are janitors.


129 posted on 02/02/2005 7:19:30 AM PST by discostu (quis custodiet ipsos custodes)
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To: Dead Dog
Can you guess why Hybrids found a home on the tracks and not the roads?

Because in a locomotive, there are times when you need huge amounts of torque -- pulling a mile long train up a hill for instance. A combustion engine has to be sized to a torque load, and a combustion engine sized to maximum torque is just plain wasted mass, space, and cost most of the time. Fuel economy scales directly with displacement.

With hybrids, you can size the combustion engine to the average, and let batteries plus electric motors handle the peaks. This works splendidly in locomotives because there is a huge difference in the torque needed to pull up a hill and maintain speed on level ground.

Hybrids, aren't needed on the roads because there isn't that much difference between the peak torque and average needed. Small cars have already been sizing engines' peak torque close to the average. The mass of the batteries and motors completely eclipse any combustion engine mass/volume savings. And automobile engines are already very small and relatively efficient.

130 posted on 02/02/2005 7:46:32 AM PST by hopespringseternal
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To: hopespringseternal
Exactly, plus imagine the problem of getting a 2000hp engine to produce maximum torque at 0 rpm. Electric motors produce maximum torque at 0 rpm, very helpful when pulling a freight train from a standing start.
131 posted on 02/02/2005 8:18:47 AM PST by Dead Dog
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To: discostu

"...unless Toyota's plant is so automated the only personel are janitors."

Once they're that automated, cheap chinese labor is meaningless.


132 posted on 02/02/2005 8:19:51 AM PST by Dead Dog
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To: Hammerhead
Do the math on the price of a Toyota Corolla vs Prius. Then calculate the price diffence against the small amount of milage you gain with the Prius. It would take you 20 years to recoup the difference.

Whatever rationale they might try to sell, people drive a Prius for the same, simple reason a lot of people drive whatever they drive; they're trying to impress someone. "Look at me, I'm green!"

They're not much different than those whose cars say, "Look at me, covet this!" or, "Look at me, mine's bigger'n yours!" Just a different target audience.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Freedom of choice is a good thing.

133 posted on 02/02/2005 8:19:53 AM PST by newgeezer (Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary.)
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To: newgeezer

The best reason for driving a prius, imo is the same as the best reason for driving a Dodge Magnum...Torque.

Acceleration is fun, but I'd rather not look gay.


134 posted on 02/02/2005 8:22:44 AM PST by Dead Dog
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To: Dead Dog; WildTurkey
"I've owned 4 american cars, the only one that didn't make 250K was a Chevy Chevette (read Isuzu)."

I'd almost forgotten the 'shovette.'

These phonies that lease a new car every two years to "keep up appearances" have no idea how well built american cars always have been. I kept my 65 mustang for nine years of wild post-adolescent indulgence, and replaced the 271 HP engine at about 300,000 miles because it sounded 'loose.' I gave it to one of my neighbors who installed it in a tow truck and ran it for another 100,000 miles.

135 posted on 02/02/2005 8:23:23 AM PST by editor-surveyor (The Lord has given us President Bush; let's now turn this nation back to him)
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To: editor-surveyor

Chevy's monument to outsourcing, the Chevette, lasted 65K miles. It was literally built to be disposable. Worst $800.00 I've ever spent. Should have blown it all on beer.


136 posted on 02/02/2005 8:28:10 AM PST by Dead Dog
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To: newgeezer

He is right, but he is wrong.


137 posted on 02/02/2005 8:30:17 AM PST by RightWhale (Please correct if cosmic balance requires.)
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To: editor-surveyor
In the 80's our cars consisted of a Z-28, Honda CRX-SI and a Nissan 300ZX. In the 80's the only car that needed more than routine was the Z-28. We moved to NE about 1990 and I got a Jeep Cherokee. Sold the Z and the Honda. In the 90's the only "maintenance" on the ZX was to replace the poly drive belt in the retractable antenna. The jeep needed several ...

In the 2000's we own a Mustang GT and a Toyota. Guess which one has had the maintenance and which has not!

And then there is the "new car syndrome". My jeep had to have four trips to the shop to finally get the electric door locks working and my Mustang had to have three trips to get the clutch to stop squealing.

138 posted on 02/02/2005 8:32:01 AM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: Dead Dog
a Chevy Chevette (read Isuzu).

Not sure what you mean by that. As far as I know, the Chevette (circa 1975-1982) was designed and built in the USA. Are you saying it was rebadged as an Isuzu for export?

139 posted on 02/02/2005 8:32:31 AM PST by newgeezer (Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary.)
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To: newgeezer
Apparently, we're both wrong. The Chevette was a member of the T series, built by about 7 different countries. Japan built them as Isuzu's, Europe they were built and sold as the Opal Kadet. Apparently they were designed by Opal, and build world wide. The US ones were domestically produced.

I swear mine had Isuzu parts.

I think the Chevy Luv was originally an Isuzu.
140 posted on 02/02/2005 9:06:16 AM PST by Dead Dog
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