National Retail Sales Tax - You gotta be kidding!

For quite some time now there has been an organization pushing for a National Retail Sales Tax (NRST) to replace the current income tax in the US of A. The proponents thereof call it a "fair tax", and even have a web site www.fairtax.org. These folks claim that the current income tax structure is a crumbling mess, and that the NRST, a "voluntary" tax is the most equitable solution. For what it's worth, I agree wholeheartedly upon the first premise, but disagree vehemently on the second.

The NRST would be no more voluntary that the current system. What are you gonna do? Buy something and tell the cashier not to add the federal tax? Or not buy anything? (multiply that by every taxpayer and imagine the effect on the economy). And if you believe the proponents claim that they can put enough safeguards in place to make their system painless and equitable, then I have a bridge in New York that you can buy cheap.

The NRST would, by definition be a highly regressive system that would hurt the middle class far more than the wealthy, and if it ain't complicated enough in the planning stage, just wait a few years. Tax accountants wouldn't' be in any real jeopardy under the NRST, they would just have to learn a few new rules. Since the nature of any government program is to increase in complexity, watch for tax changes to increase this or decrease that, then try to factor in the cost of compliance with all this going on - guess who's gonna pay?

The premise that spending is a taxable activity is silly on the face of it. I remember my ex-wife complaining after I spent my last dime on a badly needed item "If you have $50 for that, then I can spend $50 on what I want". The proponents seem to believe that if I have 500 to spend on a badly needed washing machine, that I can also pony up another 40% or so for their agenda. This is ludicrous and insulting to the intelligence of the voting public. Just because I have 500 dollars, doesn't mean that I have 700. Just like my ex refused to believe that if I had 50 dollars for one item that I couldn't magically conjure up another 50 dollars for her. Fifty dollars is fifty dollars. It isn't an indication, hint, or promise that there's a matching fifty dollars lying around for everybody else's ideal. And under the NRST proposal, if I don't have the 700, then I can't buy the 500 washing machine. So since I don't have the 700 bucks, I don't buy the appliance. The seller doesn't make the sale, the manufacturer doesn't' get to make another one to replace it on the shelf, the deliverer doesn't get to deliver it. Everybody loses.

But wait! The NRST proponents cheerfully remind me that "large purchases" such as major appliances and automobiles would be exempt from the NRST. Ah! The first major complication. What is and what is not covered. So maybe a set of dishes would be covered. Would we care to look into what this little statement would mean? In a very few years we will inevitably see merchandise gerrymandering as to what would be taxable and what wouldn't. And someone would have to keep track of all this. I remember in Connecticut where a 75-cent milkshake was taxed six cents for a nickel's worth of malt, but the same sized milk was untaxed. Food was taxed but only if it cost one dollar or more. Clothing was taxed unless it was for a child under ten years of age. One customer buying a jacket had to pay the tax, but another didn't have to because of the age of the child. Can you keep track of this? Multiply this by the political agendas of congresscritters all over the country,. And you can see what I mean by merchandise gerrymandering.

Quite simply, it would mean that the increasing tax burden would be spread to more items of lesser value, therefore having a greater impact upon the final purchase price. So the government would have to get more from less. So the "Fair tax" might end up making that $40 set of dishes cost $80 or more. So what would be the result? Fewer people buy dishes. People who make and sell dishes would do less business, and therefore they would be hurt. The customer would be hurt by the loss of the use of the new dishes, the whole economy would take such a hit that it would take years, if not decades to recover. Discretionary purchasing could evaporate overnight.

Would there be exemptions for lower income people so that each person pays a tax burden more in line with their ability to pay? Would certain people be able to carry a tax avoidance card to not have to pay taxes due to their economic status? How would you protect the poor - who also need to buy things like dishes every now and again?

Let's look at this another way. Perhaps a person like me must spend 80 to 90 percent of their income on living expenses. Much of that would be subject to the NRST. So more of my money, as a percentage of income, would be taxed. Now let us look at someone like Bill Gates, or Ted Kennedy. Since they have vast incomes compared to me, they can afford to shelter more of their income into other areas. If the NRST is the major tax vehicle, then they would only be taxed upon the much smaller percentage of their incomes that they spend on living expenses. Because they can afford to sock away lots more money than I do, that money would not be taxed as it isn't "spent"! Yes, I know that Gates and Kennedy spend more than I do, but as a percentage of their total income, it is less. So the NRST favors the rich at the expense of the middle class!

But the NRST folks won't tell you that. In fact, they'll flatly deny it hoping that you don't notice the vast amounts of income that the very rich sock away into investments, etc. that wouldn't be taxed (unless they want yet another complication in their system), and focus our attention upon their SUV's. The net gain for the rich would have to be made up for by the rest of us - resulting in a higher tax rate for the middle class and for the poor. The poor subsidizing the rich - reverse Robin Hood!

Let's go back now to the concept that people spend a predictable portion of their income. Every person has basic needs - food, housing, clothing, etc. that must be met. These needs are similar for everyone across the income spectrum. To the extent that these items will be subject to the NRST, everybody pays the same flat fee. If your income is above the minimum, then you can spend a little more, which would be taxable, and perhaps sock a little away. That would not be taxable, apparently, so you gain an incentive not to spend, not to buy. That amounts to putting a damper on the economy in the area of discretional spending. Maybe I don't need those new dishes after all. Multiplied by the number of people who would be affected by the NRST, you have a serious downturn in the economy, resulting in loss of jobs, wages, resulting in severe economic hardships for just about all of the middle class. Of course, the rich wouldn't be affected as much.

So let's look again. The more you make, the less a percentage of your income you need to meet your basic needs. That means that you don't have to spend so much of your money to live. You can shelter more from the government, an option not available to the lower income brackets who often lead hand-to-mouth existences. They'd be the ones hit the hardest. This is the definition of regressive taxation. The social consequences are considerable, and beyond what I am prepared to discuss at this point, but there are historical precedents that are not good.

But wouldn't you benefit from an immediate pay raise by the amount you would normally pay in income taxes? Certainly, and I would welcome that. However, since the entire tax burden on the whole country would remain constant (which means ever-increasing), and since the rich would be paying less overall taxes (the richest 5% pay 85% of income taxes, or something like that), that loss of governmental income would have to be made up by people like me, so logically, there cannot be anything but a net loss for me - I'd end up subsidizing the likes of Kennedy and Gates!

And let us not forget that complication in that some things would be taxed while others would not be taxed. This would be a boon to the politicians - in that they can reap huge amounts of revenue simply by adding an item to the "Taxable" column, it would have a huge negative impact upon those who would be doing the collecting. Oh yeah - remember those? That burden would fall upon business owners and establishments that sell taxable items to the public. The reasoning of the NRST crowd seems to be that if they can collect income taxes for the state, they can collect for the feds. No prob. What they overlook is the increased cost to these businesses, many of them barely breaking even, to collect the deferral taxes. Not only must they follow the whims of state politicians, but they would have to attune themselves to the federal politicians as well! They'd have to absorb the costs of the paperwork required, increased bookkeeping, reprogramming computers, etc.. But you and I know full well that these costs would have to be passed on to us customers. So again, we will pay more for less. OR at least the middle class will. And presumably the poor - unless the poor become exempt, in which a whole new level of beauracracy would be needed - and we know who will have to pay those costs!

Let me give you an example. Support toothpaste isn't taxable. Then some politician figures out that the taxes on a three dollar tube of toothpaste can pay for the next congressional pay raise. It's only a buck or so, so the average guy won't get too upset, but that dollar turns into more than one dollar when you factor in the costs of reprogramming grocery store computers all over the country to reflect that this item is now taxable. So the price increase is closer to a buck fifty. Then some other politician wants to be reelected, so he proposes eliminating the tax on laundry detergent. Here we go again. That one - dollar price decrease translates into a mere 50 cents by the time compliance expense is factored in.

And nowhere would there be any addressing the real problem of federal taxation - the spending glut. The feds are simply spending too much money. The more they get, the more they spend, the government simply cannot exercise any fiscal restraint. The federal government has never had a revenue problem they've always had a spending problem. They spend too much. Where would be the incentive for them to spend less if we give them new pockets to pick?

The solution to the tax problem isn't a misnomer - a "fair tax" in name only, it will have to be a system in which everybody bears a share of the burden commensurate to their ability to pay, not their need to spend. It has been said that if everybody had to pay a fair share of the total tax burden, that people would demand reduced federal spending. THAT is the solution to the problem. Or at least, create a viable environment for the kind of fiscal triage that has been sore lacking in all levels of government.

First of all, I would propose to classify all monies coming into an individual as income. Investments, capital gains, interest, wages, compensation - anything coming IN will be classified as income. All incoming monies are income, all income is treated the same. That income would be taxed at a flat percentage, and that percentage would be the same for everybody. If Ted Kennedy pays the same percentage of income that I do, he still pays a lot more, whether he spends more than I do or not. If someone who makes less than I do has to pay the same percentage, they pay less, more fitting to their abilities.

Nothing would affect people's ability to buy dishes, cars, or anything else because purchasing would be relatively independent of taxation. If you don't' tax it, you don't stand in the way of people who want it. You don't collapse the whole economy for the sake of a political agenda. Purchasing would be minimally affected.

If people don't want to pay their fair share (I would even tax welfare because everybody should be stakeholders), then they can get after their representatives to cut spending. I predict a huge groundswell, and things like beekeeper subsidies and research in to the sex lives of insects would be subject to a lot more scrutiny, and spending would go down. That solves the problem.

The "fair tax" is highly unfair. It hurts far more than the middle class. It only helps the rich - those with the highest proportion of discretionary income. The NRST cannot help but hurt the working classes, the welfare classes, small businesses, and the national economy. The proponents of the NRST dangle the tax deductions in your paycheck like a carrot before your eyes, so that you don't see the huge stick that you're gonna get whacked with if this goes through. I predict that if the NRST gets passed, that within two years there will be a depression that would be far worse and longer lasting than the "Great depression" of the 20's.

Oh! And finally - they claim that they will get rid of the IRS. Really? Who's gonna police the collectors to make sure they collect the right taxes from the right goods?

The reason this tax proposal is so VERY DANGEROUS is that if the Income Tax were actually dumped in favor of this National Sales Tax, then something would come along sometime--in 5, 10 , 20, whatever years, but it would come, like a war, or a depression, and the politicians would say, "Geez, we just hate to bring this up, but we need a teenie weenie little income tax, only maybe 2%, what can that hurt? ... just temporarily, until we get through this little _____ crisis (war, depression, ... , fill in the blank).

Then we never ever get rid of it, they just add to it in the next "crisis". Then we have the National Sales Tax, AND the Income Tax along with all the other myriad of taxes and hidden taxes and fees we are burdened with.

Don't go there. Don't let this Camel's Nose in the Tent. This is really a very very BAD idea, because what I have described is exactly what would happen, without a scintilla of a doubt. There is a tax on all our phone bills added in 1800 something for a war. I think it's still there. I rest my case.

Let's wrestle with the devil we have in the ring. Don't let a second devil in the ring. If you do, the first devil will sneak back in the ring after a generation when the old guard has relaxed or passed on and memories have faded.

LOL......no apology needed.

That little anecdote gives much insight into why we moved out of Delaware....we were living in the same school district he went to and graduated HS more than 30 years ago from.......we didn't want our daughter going there.

I've been talking about sales taxes and income taxes on this thread and it just hit me, exactly why I should be in favor of this proposal.

I do my grocery shopping in the same supermarket chain as I did when I lived in Delaware, which boasts no sales tax. In Virginia there is sales tax, even on food. Food items that I have always bought on a regular basis, pasta and rice come to mind, that I know the price of are more than 40 cents a package less here in Virginia than in Delaware. The sales tax on it means nothing to me, because I'm still paying less than in Delaware.

Delaware has what is called the gross receipts tax, which is actually a hidden sales tax. Every business in the state must pay it based upon the GROSS revenue they receive each year. It winds up being built into the prices. I've actually been able to prove to friends here it is not worth the gas to drive the 60-70 miles to Wal-Mart in Delaware to save the 5% Maryland sales tax (there is no WM in this part of VA, we have to go to MD).....the prices at the nearest WM in Delaware are higher than in Maryland, even after the sales tax is added.

As I said earlier - you've got a convert here...

As an employer, please explain to me why wages would drop with a NRST?

He will cite some economic study that assumes employers will drop wages. It is just that, an assumption and he believes it with all of his heart. If you get an explantion from him of exactly why that will happen in the real world please ping me. Inquiring minds.

He will cite some economic study that assumes employers will drop wages. It is just that, an assumption and he believes it with all of his heart. If you get an explantion from him of exactly why that will happen in the real world please ping me. Inquiring minds.

Just like you assume prices will drop with nominal wages staying the same. The difference is that your assumption is your's, "mine" is actually the opinions of a vast array of economists.

There is a tax on all our phone bills added in 1800 something for a war. I think it's still there. I rest my case.

The tax on your phone bill is the "Gore tax" that was supposed to wire every classroom to the internet. Not only was the tax illegal but now we find that school districts, like Atlanta, have wasted tens of millions of those dollars on computers that are outdated and sit in warehouses. Your statement about the possibility of a double taxation down the road is sensible , but remember, the fair tax proposal repeals the income tax amendment. It would require a constitutional amendment to re-institute an income tax. Fat chance of that ever happening again.

Just like you assume prices will drop with nominal wages staying the same. The difference is that your assumption is your's, "mine" is actually the opinions of a vast array of economists.

The vast array of economists that predict end of year prices each year for the Wall Street Journal are wrong 9 out of 10 years. The studies you posted mention that wages will have to drop. But wages don't just drop. They have to be cut by an employer. The vast array of economists don't seem to have any good reason why an employer would cut those wages. They just say it will happen. I can't for the life of me see why. If you would explain it for all of us here then we can debate it. Otherwise it is just economic nose dribble.

the fair tax proposal repeals the income tax amendment. It would require a constitutional amendment to re-institute an income tax. Fat chance of that ever happening again.

Unfortunately the Fair Tax Act cannot repeal the income tax amendment, it can only set up the conditions where repeal can be seriously considered to be a viable action. With the repeal the federal income tax statutes, and a viable tax system taking the place of income taxes, the way is open for the Article V, amendment procedures to go forward in the form of an independant proposal to the states by 2/3 of both Houses of Congress as is required under the Constitution.

With income tax the primary means of collection federal revenues over the last 100yrs, the mere dependance upon the income tax infrastructure has been one of the dominant obstacles in the way of an amendment to prohibit the use of taxation on incomes.

Why in heaven's name would an employer drop wages?

The way I am understanding this the employer will actually be laying out less money by not having to pay all the insidious taxes on the wages.

It seems wages would at worst stay the same or go up depending upon the employer. If I were the employer and given the choice of the current system, or not dealing with it, I'd give my employees the difference.

This guy lost me at the "pony up another 40% or so" line. How someone can be so misinformed about the topic they're writing about and expect to be taken seriously is beyond comprehensionJust because you can't comprehend it doesn't mean it can't happen.

$100 plus 8% state/local tax = $108

$108 plus 29.87% (federeal ~~sales~~ gross payment tax) = $140.26 (gross payment) or 40.26% total tax.

23% "of the gross payment" = $32.26 or 32.26% federal ~~sales~~ gross payment tax.

`(b) Rate-
`(1) FOR 2005- In the calendar year 2005, the rate of tax is 23 percent of the gross payments for the taxable property or service

"$100 plus 8% state/local tax = $108

$108 plus 29.87% (federeal sales gross payment tax) = $140.26 (gross payment) or 40.26% total tax."

Where does it state that federal sales taxes will be paid on state sales taxes? C'mon.

"With federal income tax, the projected income of the federal government is fairly predictable and relatively fixed while an income based upon consumer spending may vary."

Actually, quite the opposite is true. Historically, consumption has been more stable than income.

I don't want to accuse lewislynn and Your Nightmare. They know how I stand and they are well informed people. I do want to throw out a possibility that many of us hadn't thought of before and that it one of business. It would make sense to me if those two had payroll businesses that are heavily dependent on the existence of a complicated tax policy. There used to be a company called MyBenefitSource.com that was bought by H&R Block. Their business model was heavily dependent on complicated tax policy and I am sure there are others out there. Smell the money and you'll soon see the reason.

BTW, you should explain your "gross payment" notion

It's self explanatory to anyone who understands what "gross" and "payments" mean when used in conjuction with each other...I don't get my informaation from the pretty words at the fairtax website, I read the legislation.

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