Posted on 01/26/2005 10:37:01 PM PST by neverdem
The Shroud of Turin is much older than the medieval date that modern science has affixed to it and could be old enough to have been the burial wrapping of Jesus, a new analysis concludes.
Since 1988, most scientists have confidently concluded that it was the work of a medieval artist, because carbon dating had placed the production of the fabric between 1260 and 1390.
In an article this month in the journal Thermochimica Acta, Dr. Raymond N. Rogers, a chemist retired from Los Alamos National Laboratory, said the carbon dating test was valid but that the piece tested was about the size of a postage stamp and came from a portion that had been patched.
"We're darned sure that part of the cloth was not original Shroud of Turin cloth," he said, adding that threads from the main part of the shroud were pure linen, which is spun from flax.
The threads in the patched portion contained cotton as well and had been dyed to match.
From other tests, he estimated that the shroud was between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.
Exactly!
Even if there are skeptics out there, the mystery is still the essence of the discovery, and analyzation. In other words, if you'll pardon the expression, the devil is in the details.
Me too--trust me, I don't want to see it damaged or destroyed. I'm sure Hoshea would've loved to educate the masses and keep the serpent too, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.
I agree, but you can't dismiss this out of hand.
I don't. God clearly chooses to invest symbolic objects with His power for a time and for His purposes, as per your example earlier, or the cloths that Paul prayed over and sent to the sick. But that doesn't mean that we should chase after such relics or hope to obtain our healing from them--we need to pursue God, and if He chooses to act in a wierd way or through an object, wonderful. But even if He does, we should never show worship to the creation rather than to the Creator.
The only thing that comes close to being an exception that comes to mind is the Ark of the Covenant, the earthly symbol of God's throne in heaven. But even there, the Israelites were clear that they worshipped the God "who dwells between the cherubim," not the Ark itself.
Jesus is the Christ, and his age is about 2,000 years. Jesus is the incarnation of the eternal Word, the second Person of the Trinity, present with the Father at the creation. It's the incarnation that happened in time at a definite point. Prior to this time God was not also Man. Subsequently he is, and will be forever.
.....better, 'present with the Father since BEFORE the creation.'
ie. There NEVER was a time when Jesus was NOT!
Jesus too is Almighty God,.....The ETERNAL ONE!
The Shroud Of Turin is the authentic burial shroud of Jesus, and the head cloth is somewhere else...Spain I believe.
Bacteria???? that's a new one. Right...Bacteria made that image...right.
One need only understand the chemistry of the image to know that it is not bacterial or a photographic creation.
The outermost, out-facing fibers of the thread are coated with a thin film of starch fractions and saccharides. The coating varies in thickness between 180 and 600 nanometers. That is in the range of the thickness of the wall of a soapbubble. That is about 10% the width of a red blood cell. We can only speculate how that coating got there, but it is logical to think that it is an evaporation concentration. Ray Rogers has reproduced the coating by washing a piece of raw starched linen made from pre-bleached yarn in soapwort suds and leaving it to dry. The starch fractions and the sugars from soapwort wick their way to the surface and remain as water evaporates into the air. Incidentally, this is how Pliny the Elder describes the manufacture of linen in the first century (it was done differently in the medieval era -- field bleaching after the cloth is made eliminates the coating).
The image is within this coating. In places, this otherwise clear coating has turned yellowish-brown. The spectral characteristics are of caramelization of the sugars or a Maillard product caused by an amino/carbonyl reaction (the same stuff that gives beer it color). It's a complex conjugated carbon product. Where there is image the coating is slightly thinner, relative to adjoining coating, and crackled from dyhydration.
The coating can be removed with diimide and pulled away with adhesive. Many fiber samples with the coating, and particulate bits of the coating are in labs in the U.S. and elsewhere in the world.
There is no way that this was produced by bacteria. And this coating is not, and never was, photosensitive.
Dan
There NEVER was a time when Jesus was NOT!
Excuse me, but the tremendous significance of the Incarnation rests on the fact that God became man in time. There was a second Person of the Trinity before this time, but there was no Jesus.
Wrong!
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the name "Jesus" in this case refers to incarnation of Christ. Hence Luke can write "And when he was twelve years old" (Luke 2:42a). If you were paying attention to the thread and not simply "gotcha," you would have seen that I was arguing that Jesus was, exactly as you say, about 2,000 years old, and not, as the person I responded to would say, infinitely old. The incarnation of Jesus ascended into Heaven, where you correctly state he is and always shall be until he comes again in glory.
Geesh, find something better to do than argue with people who are making your own point.
Can you be more specific?
Yes,......Revelation 1:17,18
There NEVER was a time when Jesus was NOT!There never was a time when the Word -- i.e., the Divine Person -- was not because there never was a time when the Divine Nature was not. But there definitely was a time when Jesus was not because there was a time when the Word's human nature was not.
:-)
Well, first, it wouldn't be Christ. It would, in effect, be his twin brother. "Hi, I'm Bob, Christ's brother." Really not an appealing prospect, and imagine how Bob would feel?
Seriously, I'd be interested in seeing if there were any identifiable markers, any kind of indication that there was something more present. It's like the folks who postulate that the Shroud image was created by the energy given off during the resurrection, positing a physical mechanism for God to have used to create the image.
You mention Sci Fi. Have you ever read the book of Contact, by Carl Sagan? That well known and very public Atheist had a twist at the end of the book that they didn't go into in the movie. Contact was largely concerned with ferreting out information embedded in radio noise, using largely code breaking techniques. At the end of the book the hero has moved on and is looking at DNA. She applies the same techniques to DNA as she had to the radio signal and basically finds a picture with a sign saying "start here." Sagan says he didn't intend to write that scene, but something just pushed him to do it when he was typing. He never could explain what he'd meant by it or why he'd put it in.
Maybe there's a message waiting for us in His DNA?
Of course, Murphy's law says it would be "If you are reading this then you've done something very wrong."
No one is disputing that Jesus is a divine Person. What you are overlooking is that while that Person has always existed, before the incarnation he had only a divine nature.
Jesus is a man. Jesus has always been a man. Jesus cannot have been present at the Creation because his mother did not exist yet.
You evidently do not understand why the Council of Ephesus called Mary the "mother of God". It's not about Mary at all. "Mother of God" is a christological term; it tells us who Jesus is.
I AM the Alpha and the Omega. I AM. The name of the God. God's name didn't become Jesus until he took on human nature.
Yes,....Jesus is the Eternal God,....Jesus is the Eternal God the SON of the Eternal Tri-Unity....Father, Son, Holy Spirit!
The Alpha and Omega......There NEVER was a time when Jesus-the SON was NOT!
:-)
There NEVER was a time when Jesus-the SON was NOT!We're almost there. There never was a time when the Son was not, because the Son is eternally begotten. There was a time when Jesus was not, because the Son's human nature was temporally begotten.
Who is saying, I AM the first and the last? The person is saying it, not the nature. That person is the eternally begotten Son of God. That's his name: The Word. The Son. From the incarnation forward, the person was the same -- the eternally begotten Son of God -- but he now had two natures, and two names: The Word -- by virtue of his divine nature -- and Jesus -- by virtue of his human nature. Jesus and the Word are numerically identically: One person, two natures.
Think of Samuel Clemens and Mark Twain. They're numerically identical -- i.e., they're the same person -- but he has two names. Samuel Clemens existed from the moment of his conception; however, Mark Twain didn't exist until some time later.
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