Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean'

FoxNews ^ | 1/23/05 | Unknown

[o_zarkman44]

Doing nothing converts no energy at all. So we are still stuck with the problem of replacing energy sources.

There are critics out there because they think everything has to generate 5000 Watts to be a substantial consideration. Everything has a cost when it comes to energy production. But doing nothing will cost the most.

[o_zarkman44]

Just a question about optimum angles for solar cells. Is it possible to make a solar cell panel that would cover say 120 or 150 degrees, making use of direct sunlight from dawn to dusk while still capturing the indirect sunlight?
A fixed position cell seems to be the least efficient collector.
Wouldn't a radius collector increase efficiency considerably? Maybe this is already being done or is impractical? But I thought I would add my thought to the discussion.

I have novice knowledge about solar panels and collection, but have been very interested in the idea for many years.

[barkeep]

no

[barkeep]

Beg pardon, turkeys may not fly high, but I am out the cost of a windshield from one that flew across the road in front of me.

[barkeep]

A good, if limited source. We have a subdivison east of town, each house has a two well, heat pump cooling/heating unit. Pricey to install, but very efficient.

[Boot Hill]

• "Is it possible to make a solar cell panel that would cover say 120 or 150 degrees, making use of direct sunlight from dawn to dusk while still capturing the indirect sunlight? A fixed position cell seems to be the least efficient collector."

There are many options available in how you mount and orient a solar panel. The following are the basic options: Solar panels can either be mounted horizontal or tilted. They can track in both axis; east-west (time of day) and/or north-south (time of year). And they can be flat plates (for gathering direct and indirect radiation) or concentrating collectors (for just direct radiation). Or you can have various combinations of the above.

If you want to graphically see these different orientations and their effect on energy conversion, there is a really neat website that will do this for you with a minimum of mouse clicks. Go to...

U.S. Solar Radiation Resource Maps

Note about 2/3 the way down the page the link called "For descriptions from the Manual click here". Open that link in another window.

Back in the main window, start by clicking "1. Select data type" = "Average", "2. Select a month" = "Annual", and finally "3. Select an instrument orientation", here is where the fun begins. You get to select between 14 different combinations of horizontal and tilted, one axis tracking, two axis tracking, and flat plate versus concentrating collectors. Select an orientation, and when you finally click on "4. View the map" it will bring up a really high quality map of the U.S. colored in the average daily energy you can expect from that orientation.

The data (and the website) are the result of 30 years worth of data collection of solar radiation data by the DOE. Don't forget to use the Manual that you opened in the other window. It has a wealth of information and graphics about the meaning of all the different panel orientations.

Try that website and if you need more, or I failed to nail your question, then don't be shy about getting back in touch via FReepmail or whatever thread I'm hanging out on that day.

--Boot Hill

[Blood of Tyrants]

There is plenty of oil. There is some question about how oil is formed, now. It is no longer believed that there is a finite pool of oil and that once gone it is gone. Many believe that crude oil is a natural process where natural gas and other elements are forced together under the earth and form oil. The estimates of the world's oil reserves are now LARGER than they were 10 years ago.

[mamelukesabre]

"but a current meter clamped around the white wire will show that the same current flows there as in the black wire."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No, not necessarily
If, for instance, you are talking about a light switch, and the switch is turned off(open), then there is power in the black, but not in the white. When the switch is turned on(closed) there is power throughout the loop, both black and white wires.

If you are talking about a 24volt wire such as a doorbell, thermostat, or electric gas valve or some sort of pilot circuit, then when the power is off on the 110volt side of the transformer, the black wire on the 110v side is hot, the white wire on the 110v side is dead, and on the 24v side of the transformer, both the black and the white are dead.(or black and red, or red and white, whatever colors they happen to use).

Now, that's single phase wiring. If you are talking about some kind of 3 phase wiring...well now I can't remember what colors they use for 220, 208, 214, or whatever they heck voltage they read. But anyway, for three phase, then yes, they are all hot. Oh, and here's a tip for ya. Just cause there's a single phase switch installed, doesn't necessarily mean the wiring ain't 3 phase. I've been zapped more than once making that assumption. I don't know why or who the bozos are out there doing that, but there are yahoos out there putting single phase switches in three phase wiring. I haven't yet run across three phase wiring with one leg hooked up the the third prong of a 110v wall outlet, but I got my eye out for it and it wouldn't shock(pun intended) me if I did.

Things were a lot simpler back in the days when a house was wired up with only 2 wires and all the wall outlets only had two holes. My house is old and I have two prong outlets that have two small holes...not one small and one big. I'll tell you it really torqs me off when I get a new appliance of some kind that is just a really simple lamp or something and they got one prong big and one prong small. Now you tell me what difference could it possibly make to a lamp which comes first in the circuit, the light bulb or the switch?? I really don't see how it makes one bit of a difference so it shouldn't make any difference which way I put the plug in the wall so why do they need a directional plug on the stupid thing?

[KC_for_Freedom]

I really don't see how it makes one bit of a difference so it shouldn't make any difference which way I put the plug in the wall so why do they need a directional plug on the stupid thing?

It really makes no difference if everything is as designed. When you buy a device that truely does not care, you should see two small prongs in the plug. If they have a big and small set up, that is because they assume the plug is wired with the white wire on the big prong side. Something in the appliance has a chance of shorting to ground in the appliance and if it does they want to make sure that the combination of the failure and the wiring blows the fuse or the circuit breaker. My house was old too, and I put lots of new plugs so I could use the newer appliances. I did not (confession) always put in the ground circuit, and I am not sure I always wired the white side to the large prong. I was uncertain why they did these things and thought it would be okay. And I really never had a problem until I sold the house and an electrician came in and tested everything and charged me $700 to make it right. At least the buyer got good electrical.

[whd23]

Tesla believed this to be a simple procedure, and later confirmed through experimentation, that the Earth conducts electricity naturally, much like a metal ball.

No argument there, the Earth is comprised of materials which conduct electricity (with various resistances).

The Earth could be pumped with electricity and anyone on its surface could remove it by simply placing a wire into the ground.

And the other end of this wire would connect to...? For current to flow it is required that there be a difference in voltage, and that there be a closed loop (Kirchoff's current law). So you'd still need a voltage source at a different potential from the Earth, Tesla's tower wouldn't have provided you with that.

This energy could be withdrawn in unlimited amounts for unlimited uses, free for all the world's people!

Sounds horrible. A by-product of energy use is the conversion of said energy into waste heat. Unlimited energy use would result in unlimited production of waste heat. That's bad.

[reg45]

Beg pardon, turkeys may not fly high, but I am out the cost of a windshield from one that flew across the road in front of me.

You're lucky, it could have been a moose.

[jimthewiz]

DC is used on some transmission lines now that relatively recent developments in DC/AC power conversion have made it a compelling alternative in some cases.....

And the lines carrying our phone service are DC.

[o_zarkman44]

Now it is time for me to be a naysayer. I have heard conflicting reports about oil reserves and I tend to believe those who say the reserve is decreasing.
The big problem I see with the oil futures you are trying to bolster is that none of the reserve is in America except ANWAR and some of the Gulf of Mexico. Problem with those reserves is if they are not tapped we cannot count on that supply before it hits the pipeline. I don't see that happening any time soon enough to alleviate the price gouging speculators. Getting greedy with possibly fabricated supply and production estimates, in collaboration with unstable foreign cartels, has nothing that provides me with a picture of security.

I am sure there are many reserves of oil that could be tapped eventually as technology allows. But political climate in those areas does not favor America. In the mean time, I think the safe bet would be on what else we can do in America to conserve, and develop alternatives.

100 years ago oil was of little value. Now the value of oil dictates the world's economy. The value of oil favors greed. The value of oil gives credibility and power to destructive dictators and regimes. Even 60 years ago Hitler and the Japanese Empire knew that control of oil was control of the world economy.

Even now some say we are fighting a war because of oil and I can't agree more. If there was no oil in the Middle East our interest in the region would be akin to Antartica's cold. The dictators of the region would have no collateral to buy weapons, and no reason to conquer their neighbors. And we would feel no strategic need to protect the people so we can get our oil.

Go ahead and count on the oil. I think I will put my stock in American ingenuity. I can follow a power line to the source and somewhat feel comfort knowing how it gets here. But the oil pipeline runs red with blood stains and crosses lands that are unforgiving and deadly.

[RFEngineer]

"And the lines carrying our phone service are DC"

Phone lines carry both AC (voice and ring tones) and DC (line power for phones)......the load levels are low enough that losses, though significant on a percentage basis, still allow the system to function. Phone lines still are short-distance (mostly < 15k feet) - still "local" by power transmission standards.

[Blood of Tyrants]

I agree. However, we simply do not have the energy and equipment and infrastructure required to use hydrogen as a fuel. Also the BTU density of hydrogen is relatively low and that means you need an much larger fuel tank. And forget about the envirowhackos allowing nuke power plants to be built.

Like it or not, oil is what we will be using for the next couple of decades at least.

[Boot Hill]

KC_for_Freedom:   "but a current meter clamped around the white wire will show that the same current flows there as in the black wire."

mamelukesabre:   "No, not necessarily"

In a properly functioning circuit, the current in the black wire exactly equals the current in the white wire, NO EXCEPTIONS.

--Boot Hill

[Outland]

Enough already with the "natural gas" source for hydrogen thing. My freaking heating bill is high enough without having to fuel some California green-wacko's car to go shopping on Rodeo Drive.

The facts are:
1) Conversion of NatGas is wasteful in energy by itself.
2) It will drive up the already high cost of NatGas.
3) The greenies win nothing since the byproduct of conversion is CO2, a so-called "greenhouse gas". A byproduct of combustion is water vapor, another "greenhouse" contributor.
4) Hydrogen fuel does not necessarily burn clean.
5) For roughly four times the cost in fuel, hydrogen users will enjoy either a quarter of the horsepower or a quarter of the fuel efficiency over using gasoline... you can't have both.

As for the folks discussing Tesla and extracting electrical energy from the "air"; it's no pipe dream.

The earth's atmosphere has a natural voltage potential (with respect to ground) that increases dramatically with altitude. Just ask anyone into Ham radio that has gotten his/her self knocked on their butt when touching the lead from a high altitude antenna that has no DC ground. Or ask anyone who has dangled over a body of water from a helicopter using a metal line.

Voltage potentials of 100,000 Volts or more are possible depending on altitude, weather and of course, solar conditions.

There are ways to collect this energy but the drawback is that the current is low. However, it can still be high enough to kill someone who isn't careful. If the device to collect this energy is extremely large, then the available current dramatically increases. Just think of the next large cumulonimbus cloud you see and the lightning bolt that may come with it. BAM! More power than your home uses in a year with the A/C running day and night.

Okay... I'm off my scientific soapbox now.

[whd23]

"but a current meter clamped around the white wire will show that the same current flows there as in the black wire."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No, not necessarily If, for instance, you are talking about a light switch, and the switch is turned off(open), then there is power voltage in the black, but not in the white. When the switch is turned on(closed) there is power voltage throughout the loop, both black and white wires.

Obviously is the switch is open (no complete current path) there will not be any current flow in the white wire, but there will also not be any current flow in the black wire either.

Kirchoff's current law strikes again!

[KC_for_Freedom]

Just think of the next large cumulonimbus cloud

Huge amounts of electrical energy are generated in the atmosphere, Long conductor lines can get energy from the earths magnetic field even in space. Geothermal energy is boundless, solar energy is tremendous when a few acres are involved. The wind in some locals is a source of energy (Europe is going for this big time, although it will chop up some birds.)

The problem with all these energies is the cost to extract and deliver. Hydrogen is a useful idea, and may be a delivery system someday. But energy will continue to be extraced and delivered by the most economical system, and the renewable sources are still priced out of the market today. This may not always be the case, but it is now and this article simply tries to bring this concept to the media. The answer is that we will rely on petroleum products for the rest of our lifetimes, (except in small isolated cases). This is not so bad, future generations may see more use of the other sources. The one I favor is nuclear fission generation, all you need to do is take some of the desert that you might use for solor generation and put a waste facility there.