Graner gets 10 years for torture

[AVNevis]

Per MSNBC

[cajun-jack]

stupid!!!! he is scapegoat just like lt. calley was.

Damn a politician that will hang a soldier out to dry to look good.

[BlueLancer]

After having sat through over 50+ hours of testimony, marked and read hundreds of exhibits, and examined hundreds of pages of more documents that were not given to the court that were produced during the investigations, there is NO credible evidence that this posse was given any instructions to do anything of the kind. Unless you believe that the colonels and the generals were coming to visit this young corporal personally to tell him to beat up these prisoners, all of the middle-echelon leaders .. the Staff Sergeant and the Sergeants .. who have already pled guilty and been sentenced stated that no such instructions came from anyone in the chain of command. The only ones that Graner could point to specifically who told him that it would be helpful for him and his gang to "soften them up" came from low-ranking .. E-4 and below .. personnel who had NO standing in his chain of command.

Secondly, not one of the detainees who were abused .. against, it should be noted, a written SOP/rules of engagement specifically laying out what could and could not be done to detainees .. were there for intelligence purposes. Every one had been picked up and was being incarcerated for "common crimes": theft, assault, attempted rape (Iraqi-on-Iraqi), and .. in the case of one female who was forced to strip so this "fine upstanding young soldier" and his buddies could get some nude photos .. prostitution. So, for no more purpose than their own enjoyment, they successfully disobeyed standing orders against maltreatment for no reason at all. Testimony came out that specifically stated that Graner was, in general, someone who didn't obey orders or regulations: he had been repeatedly called to the carpet for uniform violations, wearing unauthorized patches on his uniform, haircut violations, and disrespect to senior NCOs and officers. Simply put, he did what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it, and d@mn the leadership.

Third, he repeated violated the posted directives in the confinement area that no cameras were permitted in the cell areas, in the hard site, or within Abu Ghraib prison. He also violated procedures by allowing his girlfriend, Lynndie England .. a person who had no standing as either an MP or an MI .. to enter the secured areas for no more reason than to have their pictures taken together.

Fourth, the pictures quite clearly show someone who was enjoying his work. Despite his right to not testify, when the trial began, his attorney stated that he was so confident of his legal standing that Graner wanted to testify to tell his side of the story. Needless to say, he did not do so .. at least, until the sentencing portion of the case when he made an UNSWORN statement, which is not evidence, merely a "here's who I am, don't punish me for what I did" kind of statement.

Finally, discipline is the cast-iron rod that holds units together. This was an undisciplined vigilante posse who decided that, because they could do these things, they would. (Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Isn't that what Clinton said for his excuse?) From almost Day 1 in the military, you're trained to obey orders, but you're also told that YOU .. personally and individually .. only have to obey legal orders. Probably the only thing that Graner truthfully said in the proceedings was that he knew that these were illegal and, in his words, immoral orders. Yet he said that he obeyed them nonetheless. As a Corporal, a non-commissioned officer in the military, that, in and of itself, is enough to demand some serious jail time. The old "I was only obeying orders" died at Nuremberg.

When push comes to shove, if you were arrested for assault or theft, and not yet prosecuted or sentenced, would YOU or your children want to be incarcerated in this man's jail?

He's a uniformed bully .. one of the few times that I've actually seen one of those archetypical "jackbooted thugs" that a lot of people on FreeRepublic are always so worried about. Yet it is those same people who seem to be defending this scum and his unrestrained posse.

Samauri Court Reporter

[HamiltonJay]

An associate of mine's uncle was tortured during WWII.. he returned from the war with no teeth, the enemy had pulled them all out... no finger or toenails... these two had been removed (and none of these were removed surgically with anesthetic for you idiot leftists who might be reading this.) He had to have his penis amputated because they slid a glass rod into it and then hit it with a hammer shattering it.

He came back from the war, bought some land and fired his rifle at anyone who approached... one day he just disappeared... it is assumed he wandered off into his woods to die.

This man was tortured! This man suffered complete and abject inhumanity that destroyed his life. This man was a uniformed soldier fighting for the United States and her allies.

Compare this to the reality of this prison scandal in Iraq, where terrorists, not fighting in uniform or for any nation attempt to kill innocent civilians in the most heinous methods possible. They had their genetalia mocked and laughed at and had to eat pork and drink alcohol... and there are some reports of beatings.

Now please don't tell me these terrorists were tortured, you lie to yourself if you think this remotely compares to torture.

[Poohbah]

Now please don't tell me these terrorists were tortured

What terrorists? See Post #442.

[L,TOWM]

if you were arrested for assault or theft, and not yet prosecuted or sentenced, would YOU or your children want to be incarcerated in this man's jail?

Well said. How 'bout even after prosecution and sentencing. This behavior would not be tolerated in a US penitentiary, and rightly so.

Once the facts came out regarding the status of the incarcerated Iraqis, I had a real problem with this.

Another thing--If we were going to use "alternative methods of information extraction" on detainees with "intelligence value", I would hope that there is at least some professionalism involved.

Not "Beavis and Butthead, Prison Guards" (an MTV^(TM) Production).

[general_re]

Yet it is those same people who seem to be defending this scum and his unrestrained posse.

Eternally mystifying to me. Defending this is like defending a tumor because it's a "part" of your mother. Well, I don't believe in defending cancers - I believe you cut that f***er right out, before it spreads and does serious harm to the thing you honor and respect.

[BJungNan]

No, think of how much damage those pictures did. The punishment is totally justified.

It is not the damage it did that should determine the sentence - it is the crime that should determine it. Ten years is too harsh.

[Wristpin]

"Defending this is like defending a tumor"

Exactly, Let me get this straight...The little E-3 has his unauthorized girlfriend into the prison during the mid shift and take their sick porn pictures of the prisoners. These activities are in no way part of the official interrogation process.

The contraband photos end up being sent via the internet to his family(A Geneva Convention Violation). The pictures make it eventually to the media, undermining the war and casting aspersions on the 400,000 servicemen that have rolled through Iraq.

Lockem up and throw away the key!

[Gondring]

But General Karpinski said she was just taking orders from a Military Intelligence sergeant, right?!

She needs something more than a slap on the wrist.

[Poohbah]

But General Karpinski said she was just taking orders from a Military Intelligence sergeant, right?!

She needs something more than a slap on the wrist.

To reiterate my thoughts on Karpinski:

In the glory days of the Royal Navy, orders directing an officer to take command of a ship concluded with "Fail not in this charge at your own peril." And their Lordships were in deadly earnest about that.

IMNHO, Karpinski should be executed pour encourager l'autres.

[aculeus]

He's a uniformed bully ...

Who, I'll wager, was a bully in civilian life.

Many thanks for your fascinating reports.

[Poohbah]

Who, I'll wager, was a bully in civilian life.

S**tcanned from at least one civilian prison job for doing this stuff...and firing a goobermint employee is probably harder than getting a felony conviction against him.

[Gondring]

Random execution of generals who fail is not something I would support. I wouldn't want to get into the situation of Russia circa 1942.

However, in this case, BG Karpinski did more than fail. Once she failed, she attempted to deflect blame, etc.

I agree with you. Execution is likely appropriate for her, and she should be brought to trial. The military and war are not just management exercises for Klinton's Korps to play at. General officers have impact on many lives, and they MUST be responsible personnel.

[Gondring]

And they weren't all actually convicted, were they?

[Gondring]

Will he complain when one of his guards smashes his head into the wall, leaving a bloody streak and him unconscious?

[mulligan]

It is dumb. Would you want to sign up?

Most seem to think that Graner got exactly what he deserved. I think this was a Public Relations/Politically Correct (PR/PC) sentence and was pre-determined. I think this has done great harm to the military and more harm to this nation. This is war and war is hell. It is my opinion this fiasco has caused and will cause more military deaths than otherwise would have happened. You go to war for one reason, to win. You do not let PR/PC get in the way.

[Poohbah]

It is dumb. Would you want to sign up?

Don't worry, son. The military tries to avoid recruiting those who get their jollies from beating petty criminals, so they won't be interested in recruiting more folks like Graner.

[AmericanInTokyo]

I am still thinking of designing up a cool looking mission or unit patch about this.

Something in the middle with a symbol for Abu Graib. On the top "Charles Graner - Lyndde England", and on the bottom "Lost Cause".

Maybe I'd distribute some to Freepers as well, since, in fact, supporting the case of this guy and his co-horts is indeed a "lost cause."

[Gondring]

I am still thinking of designing up a cool looking mission or unit patch about this.

Don't forget to send one to Graner. It's my understanding that he loved putting unauthorized patches on his uniform!

BlueLancer's post put it so well:

He's a uniformed bully .. one of the few times that I've actually seen one of those archetypical "jackbooted thugs" that a lot of people on FreeRepublic are always so worried about. Yet it is those same people who seem to be defending this scum and his unrestrained posse.

[Thinkin' Gal]

He also violated procedures by allowing his girlfriend, Lynndie England...

Stop right there! The ick-o-meter suddenly and violently self-destructed.