The New York Times--
It's not fit to a) line a bird cage .....Dat's right (all of it).
Posted on 01/15/2005 2:32:03 PM PST by AVNevis
Per MSNBC
Agree and we can inlclude the entire Liberal/\Left Establishment.
Could this case not have been postponed. . .slowed down. . .dragged out; whatever. . .until a time when 'clearer thinking' might have prevailed over the Lib mania re this incident?
This judgment will not shut up our self-congratlatory Libs who made this Justice happen. . .Our Millitary IS their war. . .
They will still beat their drums over this incident; the Left cannot get enough; when it comes to our Country making it's public mea culpas . . .and when our Military pays for them. . .they are estatic.
Agree and we can inlclude the entire Liberal/\Left Establishment.
Could this case not have been postponed. . .slowed down. . .dragged out; whatever. . .until a time when 'clearer thinking' might have prevailed over the Lib mania re this incident?
This judgment will not shut up our self-congratlatory Libs who made this Justice happen. . .Our Millitary IS their war. . .
They will still beat their drums over this incident; the Left cannot get enough; when it comes to our Country making it's public mea culpas . . .and when our Military pays for them. . .they are estatic.
The New York Times--
It's not fit to a) line a bird cage .....Dat's right (all of it).
OK. I think you're friggin nuts over this stuff and ought to get a life.
"However, we need to separate that from the relevance of the decision rendered."
Screw that. Kill Saddam NOW.
"I'm with you. He should NOT be alive today. He should have died the night they found him."
Exactly- thanks. If Saddam was the threat that he was made out to be, he should not be permitted to live. We owe this to the 1000+ Americans who've died taking his sorry ass down.
It's lonely around here, trying to remain principled with the new "neo-con", PC, conservative in name only types.
The dishonorable discharge happens after the sentence is served. Until then he'll be an E-1, and forfeiting all of his pay and allowances.
I never knew that. Thanks.
Verdict cheered at Fort Hood
Web Posted: 01/16/2005 12:00 AM CST
Tracy Idell Hamilton and Christopher Anderson
San Antonio Express-News
KILLEEN — Staff Sgt. Jason Isbell didn't mince words as he cut into his steak at Logan's Roadhouse, a few miles from Fort Hood.
"He's a scumbag and he deserves what he got," Isbell said, keeping one eye on the Steelers-Jets game above his head.
"He should have gotten more" than 10 years and a dishonorable discharge, he said.
Isbell's belief that Spc. Charles A. Graner Jr., who was sentenced Saturday afternoon, is guilty seems to be widespread in this fiercely patriotic Army town.
Opinions drift apart, however, over whether Graner is a scapegoat or a rogue soldier, and how his conviction might affect troops in Iraq.
One man at a table full of diners at Logan's, who would only give his home state of Kansas, thought the conviction would prove America is still a land of laws, where abuse and torture of war prisoners will not be tolerated.
Others didn't believe the then-corporal could have the power to order and get away with the abuse now scorched into memories across the world — of naked Iraqis piled in a pyramid, of leashes and electrical wires.
"He's got a supervisor, doesn't he?" said Maurice Davis, 28, a former member of the 1st Cavalry, 9th Regiment. "They may not have ordered it, but they certainly weren't stopping it."
Carol Szczepankiewicz was firm in her convictions.
"They're all guilty," said the former Army X-ray technician, who worked with Iraqi prisoners in the first months of the war.
"All it would take is one strong leader to stop it," she said. Her husband is a military police officer still in Iraq.
Regardless of leadership, though, "You do not obey an unlawful order as a soldier," she said. "It's as simple as that."
Isbell agreed with Szczepankiewicz and several soldiers, who would not give their names, that Graner and the others involved in the scandal have besmirched the Army's reputation and its mission.
"He's made it much harder on guys like me, who have to kick in doors, who have to interact in the community," he said. "And he shouldn't be able to tarnish the memories of other soldiers, even other prison guards, who commit acts of bravery every day."
At the Alamodome, where more than 40 award-winning soldiers were recognized Saturday as part of the Army All-American Bowl, many servicemen and women were reluctant to speak about Graner's conviction.
Most who did speak agreed that Graner and anyone who participated in the abuse had damaged the image of U.S. troops.
Maj. Paul Finfrock, a native of Lockhart and a special operations officer awarded the Bronze Star for his actions in Iraq, said it was a "travesty" the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by a few reflected badly "on the actions of 150,000 fine troops."
Finfrock said photos of Graner and other soldiers showed what appeared to him to be clear offenses.
"I can only judge it by what I saw, and it certainly would be inappropriate," he said.
Pfc. Jered Hunsaker was adamant that Graner deserved to be convicted and should have received the 15-year maximum sentence.
"He should have represented the U.S. Army like a soldier should, and we always should represent America in the best possible way," Hunsaker said. "But he didn't do that, and he did some really horrible things. It made us tumble a little bit, but we're strong and we can build it back up.
"And he doesn't represent the U.S. Army as a whole. From what I've seen, the U.S. Army, it's completely different from that."
Hunsaker, who is stationed in Fort Hood, didn't buy Graner's defense that he was ordered to abuse Iraqi prisoners.
"Even if we're ordered to do something immoral, we can take a stand. We don't have to do anything immoral. I think he was responsible. I don't think he was ordered at all."
A Vietnam War veteran who won the Medal of Honor said war sometimes forces good soldiers to take unconscionable actions to protect themselves and other troops.
"I know that sometimes you have to do things that are not aboveboard to achieve results," said Clarence Sasser, a medic who braved rocket and automatic weapons fire to help other soldiers even though he was injured. "Results are definitely necessary in what we do."
Sasser, who lives in Rosharon, said Graner was foolish to take photos that showed abuse.
"You don't take pictures when you're doing something wrong," he said.
Graner's charge sheets:
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/granerchrg1.jpg
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/granerchrg2.jpg
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/granerchrg3.jpg
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/granerchrg4.jpg
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/granerchrg5.jpg
The images are very large. Here is a link to the html versions:
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/graner51404chrg.html
The same sort of crap that he did as a civilian prison guard, and the the same sort of crap the cops did in your home town.
The big difference is that he did it while on active duty in the United States Army, which has a higher standard of conduct than either the prison system or your home town police department.
In the glory days of the Royal Navy, orders directing an officer to take command of a ship concluded with "Fail not in this charge at your own peril." And their Lordships were in deadly earnest about that.
IMNHO, Karpinski should be executed pour encourager l'autres.
Seems like there might be a gross sexual imposition charge,and this would be a first time offense.
1 year in prison and then probation would be just about what would happen in the civilian world.
I would say that we have our priorities screwed up.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
