Black Widow .17 cal armor piercing.
http://www.naaminis.com/news12.html
Posted on 01/14/2005 12:21:45 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
NEW YORK -- There is a nationwide alert to members of law enforcement regarding a new kind of handgun which can render a bulletproof vest useless, as first reported by NewsChannel 4's Scott Weinberger.
The most shocking fact may be that the gun -- known as the "five-seven" -- is being marketed to the public, and it's completely legal
It was a very difficult decision for members of law enforcement to go public about the new weapon, but officers fear that once word of the weapon begins to circulate in the wrong circles, they will be in great danger. They agreed to speak to NewsChannel 4, hoping the public will understand what they call the most devastating weapon they face.
The weapon is light, easily concealable and can fire 20 rounds in seconds without reloading.
"This would be devastating," said Chief Robert Troy, of the Jersey City Police Department.
Troy said he learned about the high-powered pistol from a bulletin issued by Florida Department of Law Enforcement to all of its agents. Troy believes faced with this new weapon, his officers would be at a total disadvantage.
"Dealing with a gun like this -- it's a whole new ballgame," Troy said.
Troy is not the only member of law enforcement to voice concern. As NewsChannel 4 began to contact several more departments in the Tri-State Area, it turned out that officers in Trumball, Conn., had seized one of these handguns during a recent arrest.
"Certainly, handguns are a danger to any police officer on any day, but one that specifically advertised by the company to be capable of defeating a ballistic vest is certainly the utmost concern to us," said Glenn Byrnes, of the Trumball Police Department.
The five-seven is made by FN Herstal, a Belgian company. On its Web site, the company boasts the five-seven's ability to penetrate more than 48 layers of Kevlar -- the material bulletproof vests are made of -- if you use a five-seven, 28-mm armor-piercing bullet.
However, the company said that bullet is not sold to the public. Instead, gun buyers can purchase what the company calls a training or civilian bullet -- the type loaded into the gun confiscated by Trumball police.
At a distance of 21 feet, Trumball police Sgt. Lenny Scinto fired the five-seven with the ammo sold legally to the public into a standard police vest. All three penetrated the vest.
The bullets even went through the back panel of the vest, penetrating both layers.
In a similar test, an officer fired a .45-caliber round into the same vest. While the shot clearly knocked it down, it didn't penetrate the vest, and an officer would likely have survived the assault.
"The velocity of this round makes it a more penetrating round -- that's what had me concerned," Scinto said.
FN Herstal told NewsChannel 4 that they dispute the test, stating, "Most law enforcement agencies don't have the ability to properly test a ballistic vest."
When NewsChannel 4 asked how this could have happened, the spokesperson said: "We [the company] are not experts in ballistic armor."
Back in Trumball, Scinto said his officers would have to rethink how to protect the public and protect themselves.
"This is going to add a whole new dimension to training and tactics. With the penetration of these rounds, you're going to have to find something considerably heavier than we normally use for cover and concealment to stop this round," Scinto said.
In Jersey City, Troy said he will appeal to lawmakers, hoping they will step in before any of his officers are confronted with the five-seven.
"This does not belong in the civilian population. The only thing that comes out of this is profits for the company and dead police officers," Troy said. "I would like the federal government to ban these rounds to the civilian public."
You got that right! It ain't the gun -- it's the ammo...
From this website:
The SS190 ammunition looks like scaled down 5.56mm NATO round and boosts the 2.02 gramm (31 grains) pointed steel and alluminium core bullet to the muzzle velocity of 650 meters per second (ca. 2130 fps) from the pistol barrel. The key idea behind that ammunition and weapons is to provide good penetration against personnel, protected by modern body armour, while keeping weapons' weight, dimensions and recoil at the reasonable levels.
I'm with you on that too! Gun companies should not even make this type of firearm, but they do and they do get in the wrong hands at sometime. We have concelled carry in MO and it drives my brother crazy (he's a state trooper), says that he has to treat everyone as armed. And before any of you bust my chops as a gun conrol advocate - know this.... My version of gun control is hitting what you aim at.
Mr. Mojo - don't worry, this is BS. There are .22s that will penetrate a lot of vests, and many rifles will penetrate a lot of vests. Besides, there are two types of this ammo: the civilian, which fragments very easily in order to help reduce "overpenetration;" and the LEO/military version which is available only on department letterhead. You won't be finding the latter version on the street in the wrong hands.
. . .
"This does not belong in the civilian population. The only thing that comes out of this is profits for the company and dead police officers," Troy said. "I would like the federal government to ban these rounds to the civilian public."
Ignore for the moment the obvious point that he appears to think that these rounds would be just peachy keen for police officers to use. Should this really be one of his top priorities? Doesn't he have more pressing criminal justice needs to attend to? After all, just today four people were found murdered (throats slit) in Jersey City. Last that I've heard, though, no reported fatalities in Jersey City were ascribed to either this gun or its rounds. (yeah, I can already anticipate the rejoinder that Chief Troy wants to keep it that way - but that is a slippery slope that, well, you know where it leads)
Yep, after the first anti-gunner vest hysteria session, head shots on officiers went UP.
Prior to this, it wasnt widely known that cops wore vests.
Thanks guys.
OK, so an armor-piercing round will penetrate body armor. Uh, won't almost any armor-piercing round of any caliber do so? And aren't such rounds illegal for civilians to own?
This gun is very similar to several other guns that are already on the market, except that it was designed for the specific purpose of penetrating bulletproof vests. If you want a gun like this one, buy one of the others. You don't need a gun that is designed to penetrate a bulletproof vest--unless you're a cop or a criminal.
And the fact that you can hold a criminal responsible for his actions doesn't impress me. That doesn't bring a dead cop back to life.
Isn't the easiest way to breach a bullet-proof vest just to aim for the head?
They aren't concerned about law enforcement officers having a head though...go figure
What about that S&W .50 revolver with the 4" barrel?
Too big AND too small!
The pistol is available to civilians now, for about $800 and up. Its the souped-up LEO/military ammo that is not available. The civilian ammo is about $18 per 50-round box.
But, for about $150 or less, you can get a Czech Tokarev that has as much penetrating power.
Believe me, I know ;)
If they want to scare themselves to death, wait till they find out about the Casull CA3800.
It's already been out over a year.
So9
Which part of the 2nd Amendment says that?
LOL!
The problem with shooting high pressure rounds in revolvers is that the latter have the barrel-cylinder gap; high pressure gas and powder residues act just like sand blasting and cause excessive and premature top strap erosion. Its why Ruger only offered the .357 Maximum Blackhawk for a short time. These revolvers suffered greatly from this erosion.
Black Widow .17 cal armor piercing.
http://www.naaminis.com/news12.html
Ok, now here is the real deal for you guys who think this is a bad thing. Any bullet from any gun can kill any police officer on any day, even if they are wearing a vest. The most vulnerable part of their body is exposed all the time, their head. shoot someone in the head with a .22 short and you will put them down. Kneecap them with any .38 and you will put them down. vests are not a gaurentee that the cops won't get killed. Yes it saves some lives, but it is not infallibel. If it was our guys in Iraq would not be in danger.
Also, criminals do not buy their guns and ammunition in a store. They get them on the black market. Ban this gun and it will still turn up on the street in the hands of criminals if they think it is any use to them. Ciminals don't obey the law. This might come as a surprise to some of you, but most of us here on FR should already know this. They will steal them if they have to, buy them on the black market or modify other firearms to do the same job. Gun bans do not work and it has been proven over and over, the libs simply do not want to admit it. They have an agenda, that is to disarm us all so we can be controlled easier.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.