Posted on 01/12/2005 8:12:05 AM PST by Stoat
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Unfortunately, it appears that the current crop of British lawmakers owe far more allegiance to Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto than the Magna Carta. The good, law abiding people of Great Britain need our help, but I wish that I knew how to do more rather than to merely offer polite verbal support.
By the way, was Clarke sober when he made this decision? He looks like a fellow who clocks far more pub hours than those in intellectual pursuit.
You are quite likely spot-on, as alcoholism is a popular fetish of many elected officials on both sides of the pond. His visage, however, suggests a particularly enthusiastic embrace of this activity, as you so perceptively indicate. His official pronouncements further bolster this theory.
Hi Stoat (and Slipperduke)
Re your (Stoat) #24, I say...
Bravo! [sustained applause and standing ovation]
Very well said. We have many friends and relatives in the UK and wish the best for them in their quest for re-establishing their right to defend themselves, at the very least, in their own homes. But the problem is exactly how you stated it. I lived in Britain for many years and worked in the newsmedia there, and the fact is that they (the media) have so thoroughly brainwashed the populace (including the lawmakers) with distortions about guns and gun crime in the U.S., that even many Conservatives in the UK are hesitant to restore their own rights to self-defense.
After the Tony Martin debacle, I was expecting a substantial shift in public opinion in favor of restoring self-defense rights, but since I haven't lived there during or after that period, I don't know whether that has happened.
Perhaps, Slipperduke can offer his two cents (or tuppence!) on the post-Tony Martin environment.
Any thoughts, Slipperduke?
Tell that to Tony Martin
Of course, the American equivalent would quake in their boots, if there were to be a real revival of spirit across the pond. It could well be contagious. It was just that fear, which prompted the pathological need to destroy Rhodesia, whose example of standing into the breach threatened the values of Western social retreat, to which we have all been consigned in the Leftist world view.
Forgive me for a bit of rant, inspired by this thread.
William Flax
I have no doubt that there are indeed misunderstandings, but there lies the rub. In the U.S., there are no widespread misunderstandings. Every law-abiding citizen has the very clear right to defend his person or another person with lethal force if necessary and if warranted by the circumstances. Very simple and straightforward. Same for home-invasion robberies...if someone breaks into your house, you are entirely allowed to, in fact encouraged, to blow the scumbag's head clean off. (after-burglary cleanup is still the homeowner's responsibility, however).
The mere fact that there is misunderstanding indicates that there is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. Our British friends deserve not only the right and the means to effectively defend themselves, but also a clear understanding of what their rights and responsibilities are in these weighty matters. In this regard and many others, the UK press has been woefully deficient.
Not in the Kerry states. Self defense is a much more serious crime than robbery in NYC, NJ, MA, CT IL (Chicago especially),ME, MD, RI, and Kalifornia.
Not in the Kerry states. Self defense is a much more serious crime than robbery in NYC, NJ, MA, CT IL (Chicago especially),ME, MD, RI, and Kalifornia.
Even in the case of a clear-cut home invasion robbery with an armed intruder? This is news to me, and I'm very sorry to hear it. It shows that we still have a great deal of work to do in ensuring basic rights to all law-abiding citizens of the United States.
Yep. Just last year a NYC man was sentenced to prison for defending his daughter from a home invader in her bedroom. His crime? nominally using an unregistered handgun. His real crime? self-defense in the Peoples Democracy of NYC.
LOL, so the perpetrator knows you will be in the bathroom??
Here's an idea, why not enact a law: "Everyone must hide their jewelry in the toilet tank."
When the burgler comes in, beat the sh$% out of him.
It's not worth it. People in the Kerry states don't want rights. With rights come terrifying (to them at least) responsibilities. Take a poll in Chicago, Boston or NYC on whether gun ownership should be restricted more, less or the same as now. Most likely 80% would say more. These people aren't worth saving. they should be given to Quebec and simultaneously become French and Canadian.
So then his actual conviction was for a gun ownership violation, not for offing the burglar?
Not trying to be picky or argumentative, just trying to understand :-)
Normally, my guess would be that even in communities that have these horrific, unconstitutional gun- control laws, a jury presented with an otherwise law-abiding citizen who terminated a rampaging, murderous scumbag might be forced into a position of having no other option than to convict for the gun ownership violation, but they would use any means necessary to acquit the victim in the matter of capping the burglar. Most sane citizens can easily imagine themselves in a similar circumstance and so are likely to have sympathy with the victim.
As the saying goes, I would much rather be judged by twelve than be carried by six :-)
Bernard Goetz was convicted of a gun violation - not shooting armed robbers. He was then further sued in civil court of causing pain and suffering to the one remaining scumbag and the NYC jury of his peers awarded the robber some outrageous sum like $250 million.
True, and the Sullivan laws that are at the root of this are evil and should be overturned. This is one of many reasons why many people choose to live in other places than in New York City.
My recollection of the Goetz case is that his conviction was limited to the gun violation until he made some incredibly stupid, after-the-fact public statements...something suggesting that he meant to kill the scumbags or that he was happy about it or something like that. This stupid statement, made long after his gun ownership conviction, gave the prosecution the wherewithal to nail him on civil charges....he brought that upon himself to some degree and it could have been avoided, if my memory serves correctly.
At least in the USA we have the freedom to move to a different city, county or state if we disagree with the gun laws as they exist in a given community. If you want to legally own a fully automatic weapon, you can in Class 3 states such as Oregon, Montana, Oklahoma, Texas, and I think Georgia if my memory serves. Yes, there's a mountain of paperwork, expense and silliness associated with it but a it can be done if you're a good, law-abiding and honest citizen.
My hope is that more British citizens will come to visit us in the USA, where they will find that despite the pronouncements of their hysterically anti-American, Leftist press, we are generally good, friendly and law-abiding people. Perhaps if more Brits come to visit us and see with their own eye what's possible in the grand scheme of things, they will take these ideas back across the pond and press for reforms.
I don't disagree with anything in this, and there's no doubt that at the very least the law needs clarification: although a great deal of the confusion is the result of ill-informed and tendentious reporting rather than the nature of the law itself. There's obviously a difference between the situation here and in the US in that the body of case law in the UK has set a higher threshold for the acceptability of the use of force in defence than is the case in the US. The point I continue to make, however, is that this is a matter of degree rather than the absolute chasm which many people believe it to be.
Or seek revenge by offering them stale biscuits? Nah, then the burglar could sue...
If I'm ever in the US, which I hope to be soon, I might just take you up on that offer!
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