Posted on 01/10/2005 5:15:43 PM PST by mhking
Forcing naked Iraqi prisoners to pile themselves in human pyramids was not torture, because American cheerleaders do it every year, a court was told today.
A lawyer defending Specialist Charles Graner, who is accused of being a ringleader in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal, argued that piling naked prisoners in pyramids was a valid form of prisoner control.
"Dont cheerleaders all over America form pyramids six to eight times a year. Is that torture?" said Guy Womack, Sergeant Graners lawyer, in opening arguments to the ten-member military jury at the reservists court martial.
Sergeant Graner and Private Lynndie England, with whom he fathered a child and who is also facing a court-martial, became the faces of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal after they appeared in photographs that showed degraded, naked prisoners.
The prosecution showed some of those pictures in their opening argument, including one of naked Iraqi men piled on each other and another of Ms England holding a crawling naked Iraqi man on a leash.
Mr Womack said that using a tether was a valid method of controlling detainees. "Youre keeping control of them. A tether is a valid control to be used in corrections," he said.
Pictures of the humiliating treatment of the prisoners at the prison outside Baghdad prompted outrage around the world, and further eroded the credibility of the United States, already damaged in many countries by the 2003 Iraq invasion.
Apart from arguing that the methods were not illegal, Graners defence is that he was following orders from superiors. Mr Womack said: "He was doing his job. Following orders and being praised for it."
The chief prosecutor, Major Michael Holley, asked rhetorically,"Did the accused honestly believe that was a lawful order?"
The Bush Administration has said that the actions were those of a small group and were not part of a policy or condoned by senior officers.
But investigations have shown that many prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan and at the US Navy base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba also suffered abusive treatment after the Government considered ways to obtain information in the war against terrorism.
The trial of Sergeant Graner, a 36-year-old former Pennsylvania civilian prison guard who chatted and joked with his defence team before the hearing opened, was expected to last at least a week.
He faces up to 17 years in prison on charges that include mistreating detainees, dereliction of duty and assault. He has pleaded not guilty.
Four of seven accused members of Sergeant Graners unit have already pleaded guilty to abuse charges and three have been sentenced to prison.
Meanwhile the first court martial of a British soldier accused of mistreating Iraqi prisoners was getting under way today at a military base in western Germany.
Fusilier Gary Bartlam, 20, who serves with the 1st Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, is accused of the ill-treatment of Iraqis detained by British forces in May, 2003.
Evidence about the alleged assaults and indecent assaults of the Iraqis were heard at a court martial taking place at a British Army base in Hohne, Germany.
Judge Advocate Michael Hunter banned any further reporting of the details of the hearing for legal reasons.
The detainees have found themselves in a "Cheerocracy" (to quote a dumb current movie)....
I don't know who actually helped coordinate the story for CBS but I was listening to G. Liddy last year and he had the creepy Hackworth on and he boasted that some soldier had sent him the photos and he sent them on to CBS so I believe that Hackworth was definitely involved in getting these photos to the press to harm President Bush and his administration.
granted, but it is no worse that college hazing, NOT torture. If it were torture it might be a violation of international law, but not the Geneva Convention.
That was the name:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1130452/posts
(AG) Mar: SSg Frederick's uncle William sent an e-mail message to retired colonel David Hackworth's Web. The NY Times describes Hackworth as "a retired colonel and a muckraker who was always willing to take on the military establishment." That e-mail message would put Mr. Lawson in touch with the CBS News program "60 Minutes II" and help set in motion events that led to the public disclosure of the graphic photographs and an international crisis for the Bush administration. The Times reports on 8 May: (7)
The irony, Mr. Lawson said, is that the public spectacle might have been avoided if the military and the federal government had been responsive to his claims that his nephew was simply following orders. Mr. Lawson said he sent letters to 17 members of Congress about the case earlier this year, with virtually no response, and that he ultimately contacted Mr. Hackworth's Web site out of frustration, leading him to cooperate with a consultant for "60 Minutes II."
"The Army had the opportunity for this not to come out, not to be on 60 Minutes," he said. "But the Army decided to prosecute those six G.I.'s because they thought me and my family were a bunch of poor, dirt people who could not do anything about it. But unfortunately, that was not the case." (7)
The crime might be worth the time.
Precisely! Somebody should talk this over with victims of real torture: beatings, bamboo under the fingernails, glass splinters inside the penis, electric shock to the scrotum, broken bones, near drowning, traumatic amputations, ruptured eardrums, dislocated joints, witnessing the torture and/or murder of loved ones, starvation, disease. Then try to equate standing naked while a girl laughs at your private parts to that!
The whole argument is an absolute insult to those who have truly suffered torture during their service. Humiliation and degradation does not equal torture. Period.
From dictionary.com
tor-ture
n.
1.a.) Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
b) An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.
(Emphasis added)
There, you said it. It's the same story I heard. Hackworth.
I agree. The left always likes to take words and change their meanings.
Debasement, humiliation = torture
marriage - two people "united"
voter's rights - illegals and criminals
every vote counts - only if they're for your candidate
separation of church & state - Christianity/Judaism not allowed
lots and lots more. There probably is a book out on the "newspeak" of the left.
"Ugliest damn cheerleader in history:"
You don't admire the mantelpiece when you're stoking the fire
Not a 20 year in prison book. Just get them out of the military. How can you get away with this in a prison that is supposed to be monitored?
As usual, the higher ups skate while the blame rests with people with no authority.
You have worked in the live rock concert production industry, haven't you?
Funny how the democrats were condeming the prison situation and blowing off 9/11. I think the prisoners needed a good attitude adjustment in preparation of them meeting their allah. The whole thing was blown out of proportion and reeks of democratic subertuge/election chaos. It didn't work and these were not RA soldiers involved. The dems try so hard to smear our military, but it will not work. Actually we should have all the democrats in the house and senate in prison wearing under-wear on their empty heads. Kennedy,kerry,durbin,schumer,conyers,watts, should be forced to wear womens' clothes. Shillary,pelosi, meeks, jackson water's, murray,mckinney,boxer, and landieu should all be forced to wear lumber jack clothing for that manly look. America would be a much better place if all the democrats/muslims were deported to(Never-Ever Land on the PDQ) Scott your point was dead on about the prison folly, it was not torture. They need to get over it and by the ways how many of them were raped by our soldiers as opposed to what the terrorists did to ours?
Save for later
There will always be some ass kissers who think that by turning on our military, great political/career advancement is in their near future. Those are the ones who never had to guard the prisoners(terrorists) who spit and throw urine/feces on them. When this type of prisoner conduct happens, an immediate attitude adjustment is SOP. (no cameras allowed.) NSNR
In reality, the military has the right to execute every one of the combatants summarily, who are caught without proper military uniform, as spys.
I wonder how the Rat leftists would respond to that. LOL
Sure they were? (Mohamade said, allubaba said.)The perps(terrorists) will say anything to get back at their enemy. I would like to see the pictures of rapes,dogs biting terrorists, chem light insertions,oral sex photos plus accountabilty of broken or missing mop/broom handles. The democrats thought they could influence the election with this B.S. (They failed) The (general) conducted an investigation in which he interviewed the alleged abused terrorists aka(prisoners) It is apparent a perp when given the opportunity to either verbally give or write a sworn statment will lie or say anthing in the negative. If the (general)swallowed these (fau gazies)lies, he is a bigger fool than I thought. Also, the people who believe this B.S. Oh I forgot muslims always tell the truth, except when dealing with the infidels. P.C. will cripple our military and cost us many lives in the war on terror. Leave no mosque standing for they harbor munitions and terrorists, not prayer or worship. Who do you think the musleems wanted for our next president? It sure was not President Bush, (so sad too bad) kerri (the terrorist supporter) did not cut the mustard&catchup too. The media has a problem with telling the actual truth and reacts with emotion rather than sound mental facts. I would bet if (klintoon or scarykerri) had been in office there would have been no prison scandal or anything else. Dem mindset(klinton-life in Ameria was peaches and cream)
Ddantas, I have no problem with you, but I do have a problem with the way things are packaged for political purposes by the msm. I was expressing my points based on my job perspective and hands on experience. The purview in this case fell under the US Army CID and I would have liked to see their final report as to these allegations. We did not, but only heard the general's alleged version for our dissemination and reasoning. "It ain't nothin but a thang", "it don't mean nothin"!!!(Hamburger Hill)Doc.(NSNR)
A face only hillary could love.
American women are second to none, and the picture validates it 1000000000%. NSNR
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