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Can A 'Distant' Quasar Lie Within A Nearby Galaxy?
University of California, San Diego ^
| 10 January 2005
| Kim McDonald
Posted on 01/10/2005 1:30:09 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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Either this is an observational anomaly that will eventually be cleared up, or ... it's a very big issue indeed.
To: VadeRetro; Junior; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; Doctor Stochastic; js1138; Shryke; RightWhale; ...
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2
posted on
01/10/2005 1:31:14 PM PST
by
PatrickHenry
(<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
To: PatrickHenry
I am not an astronomer, but I never did accept the stipulation that all stars of a certain type are of a certain brightness, so the 'red shift' could be used to determine if it is moving towards or away from us.
If I used that same color theory with car headlights on the highway, I'd have run into someone with HID lights by now.
3
posted on
01/10/2005 1:33:00 PM PST
by
Yo-Yo
To: PatrickHenry
Fascinating. Thanks for the ping!
To: RadioAstronomer
5
posted on
01/10/2005 1:33:48 PM PST
by
Slings and Arrows
("The Internet, where men are men, women are men, and little girls are FBI agents..." --Anon.)
To: PatrickHenry
Hmmm, I see this as having the potential to redefine cosmology. If the red-shift must be redefined, the universe could be a much different place than once thought.
6
posted on
01/10/2005 1:35:18 PM PST
by
taxcontrol
(People are entitled to their opinion - no matter how wrong it is.)
To: PatrickHenry
Can A 'Distant' Quasar Lie Within A Nearby Galaxy?
Oh yes, they lie all the time.
Just can't trust 'em.
(hey, y'know this science stuff ain't so hard..)
7
posted on
01/10/2005 1:36:54 PM PST
by
PoorMuttly
("Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate, Watson.")
To: PatrickHenry
Maybe they're viewing it through a worm-hole? That would be REALLY cool, to find a worm-hole that was stable!
8
posted on
01/10/2005 1:40:12 PM PST
by
Conservative Canuck
(The Voice of One Crying in the Wilderness)
To: PatrickHenry
How could a galaxy 300 million light years away contain a stellar object several billion light years away?That stellar object could be traveling faster than c maybe?
... does not appear to be shrouded in any way by interstellar gas make it highly unlikely that the quasar lies far behind the galaxy
My first thought was it could just be behind it. But this suggests not. However, it's light could also be "lensed" by the interstallar matter.
9
posted on
01/10/2005 1:40:47 PM PST
by
numberonepal
(Don't Even Think About Treading On Me)
To: Yo-Yo
... I never did accept the stipulation that all stars of a certain type are of a certain brightness, so the 'red shift' could be used to determine if it is moving towards or away from us. That's not quite the way it works. The original method was to assume that all variable stars (of a very specific type), such as the one in the constellation Cepheus, are the same, because of their similar pattern of growing bright and then dim. We knew (from the parallax method) the distance of the Cepheid variable, so the distance of the others was a simple matter of measuring their brightness. Twice as far meant 1/4 the brightness, 3 times as far meant 1/9 the brightness, etc. The inverse square law.
By spotting Cepheid variables in distant star clusters, an estimate of the distance of the entire cluster could be made. Then, Edwin Hubble noticed that the redshifts of these stars and clusters showed a specific pattern -- the farther away they were, the greater the redshift. In due course, redshift alone came to be used as the measuring rod, and it's been working. Until this quasar business ...
10
posted on
01/10/2005 1:41:51 PM PST
by
PatrickHenry
(<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
To: PatrickHenry
Science asking a major WTF!!!!
11
posted on
01/10/2005 1:44:07 PM PST
by
FormerACLUmember
(Free Republic is 21st Century Samizdat)
To: PatrickHenry; RadioAstronomer
If the universe is expanding, presumably in a globular or spherical manner, out from the point of it's conception, then, like Columbus seeking a quicker route to India, if something is receding from you at a high rate of speed, would it not also be coming at you from behind?
12
posted on
01/10/2005 1:46:00 PM PST
by
Red Badger
(And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you FReep!........)
To: PatrickHenry
Might the red shift be caused by the extremely steep gravity well the light must climb out of? Quasars have recently been thought of as massive black holes, if I'm not mistaken. Black holes have been found at the center of all galaxies surveyed to date. Light's frequency can be red-shifted by gravity...Just a thought. This is very exciting stuff if what they say is true!(if you go for the cosmological aspects of things...)
13
posted on
01/10/2005 1:46:58 PM PST
by
Edgerunner
(Don't pay attention to me, ..I haven't been here long enough to have any credibility...)
To: PatrickHenry
Looks like the universe just got a lot smaller just as I coming to grips with the hugeness of it. Excuse me, I feel a bout of claustrophobia coming on.
14
posted on
01/10/2005 1:47:47 PM PST
by
OSHA
(I wish Huck Finn's last name was Fillary.)
To: PatrickHenry
If it werent for this redshift dilemma, astronomers would have thought quasars originated from these galaxies or were fired out from them like bullets or cannon balls,
OR ROCKETS?
15
posted on
01/10/2005 1:48:38 PM PST
by
BenLurkin
(Big government is still a big problem.)
To: PatrickHenry
If I am not mistaken, discoveries like this one are calling the entire Big Bang hypothesis in question.
To: PatrickHenry
Could be the "speed of light is not the same all over, and all the time" issue. It would be interesting if these observations confirmed that.
17
posted on
01/10/2005 1:50:12 PM PST
by
eno_
(Freedom Lite, it's almost worth defending.)
To: Edgerunner; Physicist; RadioAstronomer
Might the red shift be caused by the extremely steep gravity well the light must climb out of? Gravity can cause a redshift, but I'm informed that the effect of gravity is very slight compared to that of the presumed Doppler Effect. Personally, I don't know this, but my source is very reliable. Pinging a couple of experts in case I've got it wrong.
18
posted on
01/10/2005 1:50:33 PM PST
by
PatrickHenry
(<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
To: Yo-Yo
I am not an astronomer, but I never did accept the stipulation that all stars of a certain type are of a certain brightness, so the 'red shift' could be used to determine if it is moving towards or away from us. Redshift is not measured by presuming anything about star type or absolute brightness. Instead, they use a spectrograph (basically, a high-tech prism) to separate the light from the star into different light frequencies. Every element, when heated to incandescence (regardless of temperature, as long as it's hot enough to "glow") produces a characteristic pattern of specific narrow-band light frequencies. Hydrogen, for example, emits a pattern like this:
By doing a spectrograph of a star's light, then locating the patterns within it which match hydrogen, helium, and other common elements in stars, scientists can measure where those patterns appear, frequency-wise, relative to where they "ought" to appear -- the difference is the amount of redshift (if the bands show up at lower frequencies than standard), or blueshift (if the bands show up at higher frequencies).
Usually, a redshift indicates that the light source is moving away from us (by a speed determinable by the amount of redshift), but light "climbing" out of an extremely strong gravity field (like from near a black hole or neutron star) can also be redshifted by the effects of gravity.
This latest observation seems to hint that there may be other ways that light can be redshifted too, perhaps concerning something about the physics of quasars. Or maybe quasars are just another type of ultra-gravity phenomenon, in the manner of a black hole.
To: PatrickHenry
keep me informed of their opinions. Please...
20
posted on
01/10/2005 1:52:25 PM PST
by
Edgerunner
(Don't pay attention to me, ..I haven't been here long enough to have any credibility...)
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