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Outside View: America's Ukraine folly
washtimes.com ^ | Jan. 5, 2005 | William S. Lind

Posted on 01/06/2005 8:46:17 AM PST by Destro

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To: Atlantic Friend

The Russians had the most to lose by poisoning him. I think those that stood to gain are Yushch's oligarch backers who gained a visible martyr with a poison which does not kill but disfigures and makes him too sick to run his country directly leaving others to do the job for him.


61 posted on 01/07/2005 7:04:24 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: A. Pole; Atlantic Friend

Lots of urban myths have been created over the use of radiation to kill - some may be true like in the case of Ceaucescu. But the use of radiation serves to highlight the example that thses expert killers try and use a poison that can hide behind other symptoms.


62 posted on 01/07/2005 7:11:40 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: YepYep
This writer is trying to separate Christianity and democracy, which is rather foolish.

Why?

They have only very recently been joined.

63 posted on 01/07/2005 7:22:01 AM PST by iconoclast (Conservative, not partisan.)
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To: notigar
I didn't know Yushchenko was a muslim. Learn something new every day.

Facetious posts are usually not informationally helpful on these threads.

64 posted on 01/07/2005 7:33:28 AM PST by iconoclast (Conservative, not partisan.)
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To: Destro
As far as oligarch backers go, Yanukovitch has (or maybe had, now that the tide has turned) quite a lot backing him, so what really happened is everybody's guess, I suppose.
65 posted on 01/07/2005 7:46:21 AM PST by Atlantic Friend
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To: cicero's_son
"There is no "Christendom" anymore. Woodrow Wilson, Clemenceau, and the victors of WWI ensured that at Versailles."

Could you elaborate ? This is intriguing.
66 posted on 01/07/2005 7:49:18 AM PST by Atlantic Friend
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To: A. Pole
This is ridiculous discussion, Russia isn’t democratic country AMEN! Same fact that following to your conditions Arafat was a democrat showing that you are just wrong and for sure not objective.

Yeltsyn was a “half death” alcoholic, he just cannot be popular.
67 posted on 01/07/2005 7:53:25 AM PST by Lukasz (Terra Polonia Semper Fidelis!)
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To: Lukasz
Russia isn’t democratic country AMEN!

How do you define a democracy? Do you agree with this definition?

"Derived from two ancient Greek words demos (the people) and kratos (strength). A system of government in which governance of the people is by elected representatives."

If so, was Putin and members of the Duma elected or not?

68 posted on 01/07/2005 11:00:24 AM PST by A. Pole (Hash Bimbo: "Low wage is good for you!".)
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To: A. Pole

Who cares about definition of democracy. It is simple you share democratic values or you don’t share. I repeat that from your conditions Arafat was democratic ruler and Hitler probably too cause NSDAP was elected by German people. This is nonsense democracy it is something more than just elections.


69 posted on 01/07/2005 1:06:08 PM PST by Lukasz (Terra Polonia Semper Fidelis!)
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To: Lukasz
Who cares about definition of democracy.

I do and many others. Without preserving the clear and proper meaning of the words you cannot have freedom, laws or justice. Read 1984.

It is simple you share democratic values or you don’t share.

No, democracy is not about vague "democratic values" or free looting by mafia.

I repeat that from your conditions Arafat was democratic ruler and Hitler probably too cause NSDAP was elected by German people.

I am not sure about Arafat's "elections". But Hitler came to the power through the democratic process. It is a proof that democracy is not a perfect system. Very likely if the German Emperor were in place or some other autoritarian regime, Hitler would not have the chance to come to power. That is why Americans were willing to let Japanese keep their Emperor after WWII. Also Bolsheviks came to power thanks to the pro-democratic removal of the Tsar.

This is nonsense democracy it is something more than just elections.

No, you practice the Orwellian thinking when the words lose clear objective neutral meanings. In Newspeak each word "signifies" something completely good or completely bad. PC "democracy" does not mean plain traditional imperfect democracy. It means the immaculate bag of "democratic values" assigned by the masters of the official worldview to their favored actors.

70 posted on 01/07/2005 2:57:58 PM PST by A. Pole (Hash Bimbo: "Low wage is good for you!".)
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To: Atlantic Friend
But, Atlantic, the dioxin poisoning guaranteed Yuschenko's election. Feeding Yuschenko dioxin made sure Yuschenko would win. Why would Kuchma et al. do that? And why dioxin? High dose dioxin is so characteristic symptomatically.

Look to see who benefited by Yuschenko's dioxin poisoning. Someone with eleven billion dollars in ill gotten gains from corruption in the '90s, was facing criminal prosecution for bribery amongst other things, whose husband has an outstanding Interpol warrant, and whose father in law and other conspirators, arrested on Interpol warrants, are being shipped back to Ukraine for trial. Luckily she is now the Prime Minister, and she and the gang are home free.

Another thing, the Big Media are pushing your vision of events to the max. The French and Germans are all on board. Doesn't that make you wonder?
71 posted on 01/07/2005 4:38:57 PM PST by Iris7 (.....to protect the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. Same bunch, anyway.)
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To: A. Pole
I do and many others. Without preserving the clear and proper meaning of the words you cannot have freedom, laws or justice. Read 1984.

Let say that you are right. Then fact that Russia would be democratic country means nothing, exactly nothing.
72 posted on 01/08/2005 2:17:36 AM PST by Lukasz (Terra Polonia Semper Fidelis!)
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To: Atlantic Friend; Goetz_von_Berlichingen
Could you elaborate ? This is intriguing.

The Habsburgs were the custodians and protectors of Middle and Eastern-European Christendom. They were Catholic, of courss, and as such were anathema to the narrow minded, elitist bigot Wilson. Wilson envisioned a sort of Americanized and secular Europe, and the Hapsburgs were a primary impediment to this vision.

And so Wilson prevented WWI from ending at least two years early, in 1916, when the Austrians sued for peace under the sponsorship of the Vatican. He was intoxicated with the new American ideology of "unconditional surrender," as pioneered at Appomatox. Well, unconditional surrender in a Civil War iuvolving one people who share a common language, culture, relgion, etc. is one thing. Unconditional surrender in a European cabinet war was unheard of!

In any case, Wilson's intransigence led to the slaughter of an entire generation of European men and--as he intended--the final destruction of the Austro-Hungarian empire. WWII was part of the aftermath, an unstoppable tide of resentful ethnic nationalism that filled the vacuum of the old Empire. The new nationalist ideologies of the early 20th century had no time for organized religion.

That's the best cliff notes version I can provide. I've pinged old Goetz, who first turned me on to this history a few years ago. He's the true expert, though he rarely posts here at FR anymore.

73 posted on 01/08/2005 12:15:41 PM PST by cicero's_son
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To: Destro
Outside View: Yushchenko's Iraq dilemma
74 posted on 01/08/2005 9:33:45 PM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: Destro
The Ukraine is a Parl. system - majority rule - no protection or consideration to the so called minority parties. Ponder that and come again.

The Russian butt lickers had the Ukraine in their "governing" since 1991, what happened? Corruption, mess, dead journalists, same old crap. Those that so much hate Yushchenko and his program can move to sunny Siberia, closer to their "brothers".

75 posted on 01/09/2005 7:35:01 AM PST by Leo Carpathian (Slva Ukraiini!)
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To: Destro
The most important factor in U.S. policy toward the countries of the former Soviet Union ought to be our need for a strategic alliance with Russia. Geo-politically, Russia holds Christendom's vast eastern flank, which stretches all the way from the Black Sea to Vladivostok. As the remnants of the Christian world begin to wake up to the reality that Islam has resumed the strategic offensive, that flank takes on renewed importance.

Tell about "Russian Christendom" to thousands of dead priests and nuns who gave their live for Christ and died in Siberian gulags! Go and look at churches that were either destroyed or turned into storage places. Some tradition of Christendom!!! Another arm chair "expert" fool on plitics.

76 posted on 01/09/2005 7:39:07 AM PST by Leo Carpathian (Slva Ukraiini!)
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To: Leo Carpathian

You really dont understand that today Russia is not the same with Soviet Union? Are you foolish enough to think that today Russia pay mych more attention to Christianity than any other European country except for Italy and Poland - two U.S. allies in region? And youconsider yourself to be an expert?


77 posted on 01/11/2005 12:56:29 PM PST by Sartac
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