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Marine sniper credited with longest confirmed kill in Iraq
.Marine Corps News ^ | Jan. 02, 2005 | Cpl. Paul W. Leicht

Posted on 01/04/2005 3:11:49 AM PST by mental

AR RAMADI, Iraq (Jan. 02, 2005) -- Seen through a twenty-power spot scope, terrorists scrambled to deliver another mortar round into the tube. Across the Euphrates River from a concealed rooftop, the Marine sniper breathed gently and then squeezed a few pounds of pressure to the delicate trigger of the M40A3 sniper rifle in his grasp.

The rifle's crack froze the booming Fallujah battle like a photograph. As he moved the bolt back to load another round of 7.62mm ammunition, the sniper's spotter confirmed the terrorist went down from the shot mere seconds before the next crack of the rifle dropped another.

It wasn't the sniper's first kill in Iraq, but it was one for the history books.

On Nov. 11, 2004, while coalition forces fought to wrest control of Fallujah from a terrorist insurgency, Marine scout snipers with Company B, 1st Battalion, 23rd Marine Regiment, 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit, applied their basic infantry skills and took them to a higher level.

"From the information we have, our chief scout sniper has the longest confirmed kill in Iraq so far," said Capt. Shayne McGinty, weapons platoon commander for "Bravo" Co. "In Fallujah there were some bad guys firing mortars at us and he took them out from more than 1,000 yards."

During the battle for the war-torn city, 1/23 Marine scout snipers demonstrated with patience, fearless initiative and wits that well-trained Marines could be some of the deadliest weapons in the world.

"You really don't have a threat here until it presents itself," said Sgt. Herbert B. Hancock, chief scout sniper, 1/23, and a 35-year-old police officer from Bryan, Texas, whose specialized training and skill helped save the lives of his fellow Marines during the battle. "In Fallujah we really didn't have that problem because it seemed like everybody was shooting at us. If they fired at us we just dropped them."

Stepping off on day one of the offensive from the northern edge of the Fallujah peninsula, the Marine reservists of 1/23, with their scout snipers, moved to secure a little island, but intense enemy fire near the bridgeheads limited their advance. Insurgents littered the city, filtering in behind their positions with indirect mortar and sniper fire.

"The insurgents started figuring out what was going on and started hitting us from behind, hitting our supply lines," said Hancock in his syrupy Texas drawl. "Originally we set up near a bridge and the next day we got a call on our radio that our company command post was receiving sniper fire. We worked our way back down the peninsula trying to find the sniper, but on the way down we encountered machinegun fire and what sounded like grenade launchers or mortars from across the river."

With a fire team of grunts pinned down nearby, Hancock and his spotter, Cpl. Geoffrey L. Flowers, a May 2004 graduate of Scout Sniper School, helped them out by locating the source of the enemy fire.

"After locating the gun position we called in indirect fire to immediate suppress that position and reduced it enough so we could also punch forward and get into a house," explained Hancock. "We got in the house and started to observe the area from which the insurgents were firing at us. They hit us good for about twenty minutes and were really hammering us. Our indirect fire (landed on) them and must have been effective because they didn't shoot anymore after that."

Continuing south down the peninsula to link up with the Bravo Co. command post, Hancock and Flowers next set up on a big building, taking a couple shots across the river at some suspected enemy spotters in vehicles.

"The insurgents in the vehicles were spotting for the mortar rounds coming from across the river so we were trying to locate their positions to reduce them as well as engage the vehicles," said Hancock. "There were certain vehicles in areas where the mortars would hit. They would show up and then stop and then the mortars would start hitting us and then the vehicles would leave so we figured out that they were spotters. We took out seven of those guys in one day."

Later, back at the company command post, enemy mortar rounds once again began to impact.

"There were several incoming rockets and mortars to our compound that day and there was no way the enemy could have seen it directly, so they probably had some spotters out there," said 22-year-old Flowers who is a college student from Pearland, Texas.

" Our (company commander) told us to go find where the mortars were coming from and take them out so we went back out," remembered Hancock. "We moved south some more and linked up with the rear elements of our first platoon. Then we got up on a building and scanned across the river. We looked out of the spot scope and saw about three to five insurgents manning a 120mm mortar tube. We got the coordinates for their position and set up a fire mission. We decided that when the rounds came in that I would engage them with the sniper rifle. We got the splash and there were two standing up looking right at us. One had a black (outfit) on. I shot and he dropped. Right in front of him another got up on his knees looking to try and find out where we were so I dropped him too. After that our mortars just hammered the position, so we moved around in on them."

The subsequent fire for effect landed right on the insurgent mortar position.

"We adjusted right about fifty yards where there were two other insurgents in a small house on the other side of the position," said Flowers. "There was some brush between them and the next nearest building about 400 yards south of where they were at and we were about 1,000 yards from them so I guess they thought we could not spot them. Some grunts were nearby with binoculars but they could not see them, plus they are not trained in detailed observation the way we are. We know what to look for such as target indicators and things that are not easy to see."

Hancock and Flowers then scanned several areas that they expected fire from, but the enemy mortars had silenced.

"After we had called in indirect fire and after all the adjustments from our mortars, I got the final 8-digit grid coordinates for the enemy mortar position, looked at our own position using GPS and figured out the distance to the targets we dropped to be 1,050 yards," said Flowers with a grin. "This time we were killing terrorism from more than 1,000 yards."



Sgt. Herbert B. Hancock, chief scout sniper, sniper platoon, 1st Battalion, 23rd Marine Regiment, 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit, is credited with the longest confirmed kill in Iraq, hitting enemy terrorists from 1,050 yards in Fallujah Nov. 11, 2004. Hancock, a 35-year-old activated reservist and police officer from Bryan, Texas, has been a Marine Corps sniper since 1992. Photo by: Cpl. Paul W. Leicht


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: iraq; marinesnipers
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To: TexasCowboy
White Feather's shot was with a .50 caliber BMG which is supersonic out to about 2500 meters with standard 600 grain ball ammo and supersonic out to about 3200 meters with 750 grain SLAP ammo.

If you will note, I asked what the round was. I was assuming 308 since that was the round in discussion but I asked for the round to be indicated so I could be more accurate in my discussion.

Assuming Hathcock was firing standard ball ammo, and assuming a dry air medium, and assuming no negative wind, and assuming an initial muzzle velocity of 2800 ft/sec, his round would have struck his target in almost three seconds while still supersonic. His accuracy would not have been effected by subsonic drift.

You are correct in that the 50 BMG can be supersonic out to 2500 yards; barely.

But the time would be almost FOUR seconds, not three.

221 posted on 01/04/2005 8:00:10 PM PST by WildTurkey
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To: Radix

Hi Radix.

It looks like the marines are doing their jobs.


222 posted on 01/04/2005 8:02:24 PM PST by Cindy
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To: WildTurkey
"But the time would be almost FOUR seconds, not three."

I'll concede that.

My point is, don't think you're the only one on this forum who knows anything about ballistics or the only one who can calculate basic math.

223 posted on 01/04/2005 8:13:14 PM PST by TexasCowboy (Texan by birth, citizen of Jesusland by the Grace of God)
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To: TexasCowboy
What calibers does that M25 come in?

NATO standard 7.62X51. It can eat Winchester .308 just fine. Don't try that with the Remington 700 PSS. It has a VERY tight chamber. Winchester .308 ONLY. It will slam fire a 7.62X51 NATO round if you try to force the bolt closed.

224 posted on 01/04/2005 8:17:39 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: Myrddin
I've already had some of that slam firing crap, and I don't want anymore.

I'm going to check into that rifle, but I'll use standard .308 in it.

225 posted on 01/04/2005 8:21:27 PM PST by TexasCowboy (Texan by birth, citizen of Jesusland by the Grace of God)
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To: TexasCowboy
My point is, don't think you're the only one on this forum who knows anything about ballistics or the only one who can calculate basic math.

I agree. I jumped on the 50 cal example thinking 308 sniper. I just saw him taking 2500 yds and dividing by 2800 fps and getting about 3 seconds neglecting any slowing down. Things get a little wild at 2500 yards, even for the 50 and while the shot may have been made, a LOT of luck would have been needed. Perhaps he had a lot of shots at that range to get the scope sighted but given the optics, the gun and ammunition tolerances along with range, elevation and wind errors, it would be a miracle to make the shot assuming a "perfect" marksman.

Now back to the guy that made the kill at 1538 yards with open sights and "ancient" gear ...

226 posted on 01/04/2005 8:30:17 PM PST by WildTurkey
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To: Enterprise

So was Marine Sniper by Charles Henderson.


227 posted on 01/04/2005 8:35:15 PM PST by NY Attitude
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To: TexasCowboy
Hey Tex, counting seconds is OK, but the mortar tube was a dead give away.

Nice shootin' Marine!

228 posted on 01/04/2005 8:35:57 PM PST by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but have recently come to my senses.)
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To: B4Ranch
Wrong price, I think. A good glass is $1200.

Current price for a 700 Police in .308 is $779. Current price for the Leupold Mark 4 M3 30 mm Tube 10X40mm with Mil Dot reticle is $1299 at Midway. My 700PSS is topped with the Leupold 4.5X14 40mm with MilDot. The $1600 price tag was my package cost back in 2000.

You can still lay your hands on a Leupold Mark 4 Precision Rifle Long Range Scope 30mm Tube 4.5X14 40mm MilDot with matte finish for $689.99 at Midway. That would be the closest product/price match to my current setup.

229 posted on 01/04/2005 8:37:10 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: TexasCowboy
My one and only slam fire in the 700PSS was with some Brazilian NATO surplus 7.62X51. Pretty unnerving. Fortunately, the rifle was pointed downrange as a closed the bolt. Factory Winchester .308 stays well under 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

A Remington 700 Police may be hard to find. The use only the top 2% of barrels made at Remington. Don't be surprised if you have to put your name on a waiting list. I assure you that the rifle is worth the wait.

230 posted on 01/04/2005 8:42:37 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: TexasRepublic
Another Schmidt-Rubin fan! Awright! I'll take the .308 for 600 yards.

If more people knew about the Schmidt-Rubin, they would buy them up and you couldn't be able to find one for less than $500. I seldom shoot my other rifles since I got my first K-31 a few years ago.

231 posted on 01/04/2005 8:48:15 PM PST by Wilhelm Tell (Lurking since 1997!)
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To: TexasCowboy; B4Ranch
#218.

Cat eating the cabbage.

:~)

232 posted on 01/04/2005 8:48:21 PM PST by Happy2BMe ("Islam fears democracy worse than anything-It castrates their stranglehold at the lowest level.")
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To: HMFIC

"US Marine POINT-FIRED German troops in WW1 at the Battle of Belleau Woods at EIGHT HUNDRED YARDS with OPEN IRON SIGHTS of the M1903 Springfield!

R Lee said it best: "There is nothing more deadly in the world than a Marine and his rifle."




My grandfather was at Belleau Wood. DSC for rescuing his sergeant from no-man's land. Wounded in the leg.
They told him he would never walk again. He did, and later landed on Guam in WWII. Uncommon Valor a Common Virtue - among Marines.


233 posted on 01/04/2005 8:50:41 PM PST by edwin hubble
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To: HMFIC
I seem to remember reading in the book "Marine Sniper: that Carlos Hathcock reached out and touched someone with a 700 grain boat-tail bullet at 2,500 yards. He used a 50 Cal for this event. With his accomplishments of 93 confirmed kills and others not confirmed it is believable.
234 posted on 01/04/2005 8:50:44 PM PST by NY Attitude
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To: TexasCowboy
.45-70 at Two Miles: The Sandy Hook Tests of 1879

RIFLE MAGAZINE, NOVEMBER-DECEMBER 1977

THE SHOOTER at the heavy bench rest squinted as he aligned his .45-70 Allin-Springfield Model 1873 Army rifle on the distant target. The rifle fore-stock and barrel was cradled in a rest; the butt was supported by his shoulder. The rear sight was flipped up to its full height, so with no stock support for his head, the rifle tester from Springfield Armory worked carefully to align high rear and low muzzle sight on the speck that was the target - a surveyed 2,500 yards distant.

Holding his breath, he squeezed the 7-pound trigger. The rifle fired, and some 15 seconds later, signals from the target indicated that his shot had struck well inside the 6-foot diameter bullseye on a target well over a mile away!

The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," had this to say:

"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.

In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used."

The chapter on long range firing begins with a report from the Armory at Springfield, Massachusetts, May 9, 1879. It records the results of long range tests of U.S. Army Model 1873 .45-caliber rifles using 405 and 500-grain lead bullets, including variations in muzzle velocity and penetration of lead bullets through one-inch target boards and into sand. These tests were made at the request of the Chief of Ordnance. His interest had been aroused by reports of long range infantry fire, up to 1½ miles, during the1877-78 Turko-Russian War.

The line age of the "trapdoor" rifles used in the tests is apparent from the separate lock plate, the massive side hammer, the milling out of a portion of barrel and fitting a breechblock hinged at the front - all clear indications that the rifles were merely breech-loading variations of the traditional muzzle-loading infantry-man's rifle. The Allin conversion of the 1861 and 1863 models Springfield muzzle-loaders came out first in .58 caliber rimfire. Later refinements resulted in the .50-70 rimmed centerfire for the 1866 model. The .45-70 cartridge was first introduced with the Model 1873 single shot Springfield. Several model changes were made from 1873 through 1889, relatively minor differences being the type of sights, modified and improved breech-blocks and changes in stock furniture. The Springfield rifle weighed about 9.6 pounds, had a rifle barrel 33 inches long with a bore diameter of .450-inch, three grooves and a right hand twist and groove depth of .005-inch. It fired the then standard Service round consisting of the 405-grain bullet in the rimmed straight case 2.1 inches long with 70 grains of black powder giving a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1,350 feet-per-second (fps). With the same weight of bullet and a charge of 85 grains of powder, the MV was 1,480 fps.

The British Army .450-577 Martini-Henry lever-operated, drop-block action was far stronger than the Allin trapdoor breech. The Martini-Henry weighed about 9½ pounds, had a barrel 33 inches long with a right-hand twist, seven groove bore. The bore diameter was .450, and the groove diameter was .463. The .450-577 Martini-Henry cartridge was a muscular creation. It was based upon a sharply necked-down and lengthened .577-inch Snider case, loaded with a 480-grain lead bullet of .445 diameter, backed by 85 grains of black powder for a muzzle velocity of 1,253 fps.

The following table gives the angles of elevation for these loads from the actual test firings at 1,000 and 1,500 yards. Accuracy firings of the rifles were made at 300, 500 and 1,000 yards.

SPRINGFIELD and MARTINI-HENRY

ANGLES OF ELEVATION

1000 YARDS and 1500 YARDS

.45-85-405 Springfield Long Range---2d 40' 53"--------4d 35' 34"

.45-70-405 Springfield Service----3d 6' 37"-----5d 20' 4"

.45-85-480 Martini-Henry--------3d 18' 36"------5d 41' 24"

VERTICAL and HORIZONTAL SHOT DISPERSION AT 1,000 YARDS

Mean Mean Mean Horizontal Vertical Radius Springfield 9.23" 16.8" 19.1" Martini-Henry 10.9" 14.55" 18.2"

Though there is no direct relationship between mean radius and group size figures, a mean radius of 18 to 19 inches would probably translate into a group size of between 55 and 70 inches. Old Ordnance records show that when fired from a machine rest the .45 Springfield was expected to group all of its bullets inside a 4-inch circle at 100 yards, in a 11-inch bull's-eye at 300 yards, and inside a 27-inch circle at 500 yards.

At 1,000 and 1,500 yards, as expected, the mean vertical figures are considerably larger than the mean horizontal. (See the above table.) This is the result of variations in muzzle velocity, which gives this dispersion at long range, and also the effect of the high trajectory of these rifle bullets since the target is perpendicular to the ground, while the bullet is descending at an angle.

The report of October 15, 1879, covers long range firing at Sandy Hook, New Jersey. This was done along the beach to make the location of the bullet strike easier to find. Also, the long beaches allowed shooting back to 3,200 and even 3,500 yards.

The rifles tested included a special "long range" Springfield chambered for a 2.4-inch shell instead of the standard 2.1-inch case. The 2.4-inch case held 80 grains of black powder behind the new prototype 500-grain lead bullet. The other loads tested were the standard .45-70-405 Army load in the issue M-1873 Springfield, and the .45-85-480 load in the British Martini-Henry rifle.

The report states that a leaf to the rear sight several inches long was prepared in order to obtain the necessary elevation. A combination of the V-notch slide of the regular issue sight and a screw at the bottom of the leaf afforded means of correcting for wind and drift.

The target, which had been 12 feet by 12 feet square at 1,500 yards, was changed to one 44 feet long by 22 feet high. The extended wings had a height of 16 feet.

Since one of the test's objectives was to gauge bullet penetration, the huge target consisted of three 1-inch thick boards, separated by 1-inch cleats. The target was supported on 6-inch spruce posts and was constructed partly of spruce and partly pine, since this was the wood at hand.

In the tests at 2,500 yards, the target was hit five times in seventy rounds with the .45-70-405 service load, only once with the Martini-Henry in eighty rounds, and four times with the long range Springfield in thirty shots.

When the Springfield long range cartridge was fired, the 500-grain blunt nosed lead bullets propelled by 80 grains of black powder in the 2.4-inch cases at about 1,375 fps penetrated right through the three inches of wooden target and buried themselves in the sand. One 500-grain slug pierced three inches of target and buried itself in a supporting six-inch post, giving a total penetration of a measured 5.25 inches. The Service 405-grain bullet gave a penetration of just 1.12 inches, and the Martini-Henry 480-grain bullet, 2.50 inches.

Angles of rifle elevation were: Springfield service .45-70-405 - 17°08'16"; Springfield long range .45-80-500 - l0°38'21"; and Martini-Henry .45-85-480 - 13°20'18".

The angle made by the shot holes with the face of the target appeared to be about 40 degrees for the service Springfield, 45 degrees for the Martini-Henry, and 50 degrees for the long range Springfield. This angle is taken from the vertical and thus the lower angular reading indicates the higher angle of descent. Various kinds of bullets were dug out of the sand within 45 feet of the target and directly behind it. This shows the great angle of trajectory at this range and how extremely difficult it was for Mr. R.T. Hare to hit a 2,500-yard target the size of the one used.

The target 22 feet high by 44 feet long was then placed at 3,200 yards from the firer. The range chosen was fortunate in that it was found to be the extreme for the Martini-Henry. When the firer was instructed to increase his elevation, the range decreased. On decreasing the elevation, the range increased to a certain point.

The majority of the Martini .45-85-480 balls fell from 50 to 100 yards short, while the others did not go more than 25 yards beyond. More than 300 Martini-Henry cartridges were fired, but the target was not hit.

The long range Springfield's 500-grain bullets hit the target four times - twice where it was one board thick, and twice where it was two boards thick. In each case the heavy blunt nosed lead bullet punched through the wood planks and buried itself several inches into the sand.

At this extreme surveyed range, the angle of fall of the Martini 480-grain lead bullets was about 65 degrees to 70 degrees judging from the holes in the moist sand. Bullets were found in the sand behind the 22-foot-high target at a distance of only 35 feet. It was evident that they struck the sand point on, as the lead noses were always found rough.

In the case of the long range Springfield, the angle of the shot hole with the face of the target was about 30 degrees and the heavy bullet in punching through two one-inch boards actually penetrated a total of 2.5 inches. Those lead slugs that struck in the sand generally penetrated to a depth of 8 to 10 inches, sometimes more.

In this respect the Armory's 500-grain balls surpassed the Martini's 480-grain balls, which did not penetrate more than 6 inches into sand. In trying to get the correct 3,200-yard elevation, the long range bullets were thrown over 300 yards beyond the target. These were then dug out of the beach and all were found to have struck point on.

For the .45-80-500 2.4-inch case Springfield long range rifle at a MV of about 1,375 fps, the angle of elevation was 20°51'37". For the .45-85-480 Martini-Henry at 1,253 fps MV, the angle of elevation was 26°5l'.

The report of November 13, 1879, lists the results of firing tests made at 3,500 yards distance with two long range Springfields. One had a rifle barrel with a l-in-18 rifling twist, the other .45-80-500 had a 19 5/8-inch twist. Two different loads were used: .45-70-500, and .45-80-500. The Martini-Henry .45-85-480 and the service .45-70-405 Springfields were again tested against a Sharps-Borchardt using the same loads as in the long range M-1873 Allin-Springfields. After firing many rounds, the service Springfield and Martini-Henry rounds failed to reach the target at 3,500 yards.

In these firing experiments, two telephones provided with Blake transmitters were used for timing the bullet's flight. One was placed within a few feet of the rifle, to receive and transmit the sound of the shot. The other Blake unit was nearly two miles downrange in the shelterproof, which was located about 30 feet in front of the right edge of the target. At the instant the sound of the discharge was heard over the telephone, a watch ticking fourth-seconds was started. At the sound of the bullet striking target or sand, it was stopped. Average time of flight for the .45-70-500-grain load was 21.2 seconds, With the more powerful .45-80-500-grain cartridge the time-of-flight was 20.8 seconds.

For 3,500 yards distance, angles of elevation ran from 27 degrees to 29 degrees. This varied drastically from day to day due to the effects of head and tail winds. The quicker-twist rifles required less elevation than the others at the same range. The greatest distance obtained with the .45-caliber long range, 1-in-18 twist Springfield rifle was 3,680 yards. Angle of elevation didn't exceed 32 degrees on a day when an angle of about 25 degrees placed bullets all around the target at 3,500 yards range.

While these tests may be considered mere oddities today, they proved extremely useful at the time. The fact that the 500-grain bullet penetrated through the three-plank target and eight inches into sand meant that it could kill or wound enemy troops at extreme distances, even if they were partially protected and that was significant military information in a period when it was quite usual for large masses of troops to form up within view of defenders. Although no average infantryman could be expected to equal Mr. Hare's accuracy, a large number of defenders shooting from barricade rests and given the proper sight adjustments for the range could severely harass companies and larger bodies of enemy troops at previously unheard-of ranges. It may have been these tests, and this line of thinking, that caused military theoreticians to employ machine guns for indirect, high trajectory fire in the same manner as artillery during the earlier stages of World War I.

Since the tests showed that the 405-grain service bullet failed to perform as well as the 500-grain, and that the 500-grain bullet showed relatively little difference when propelled by either 70 or 80 grains of black powder, the .45-70-500 load in the service 2.1-inch case was adopted as standard for rifles. Thus those little-remembered Sandy Hook tests of 1879 had a lasting impact on firearms history without them, the gun companies might have recently resurrected the .45-80.

W. John Farquharson

Reprinted with permission from the November/December 1977 issue of Rifle Magazine

[www.riflemagazine.com].

235 posted on 01/04/2005 8:51:54 PM PST by Rockpile
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To: mental

Hathcock and Hancock. Gotta admit, there's a certain symmetry there.


236 posted on 01/04/2005 8:52:54 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Rockpile
Link to above.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/sandyhook.htm

237 posted on 01/04/2005 8:53:11 PM PST by Rockpile
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To: Myrddin

And then some extra brass and a rug, and glasses and a headset and a spotter scope and a bipod and a RCBS package and a bench and a cushion and a walkie talkie rig and a thermos and a pair of binocs and you know what? Hey Man, we could be talking some serious money here pretty soon!

I hope the Mrs. doesn't have any idea what you're talking about here. This could rupture that 10 day vacation to Bermuda that she's been talking about!

When are you going to buy your Barrett .50 ? LOL


238 posted on 01/04/2005 9:30:47 PM PST by B4Ranch (((The lack of alcohol in my coffee forces me to see reality!)))
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To: Tortenboxer
A confirmed 1000 yards kill, give me a break.

I don't doubt it for a minute. I can hit a juice can at 400 yards with open sights on my.223 with an 18" barrel (hardly considered a good sniper rifle)--and I haven't had any military training. A long-barrel .308 with good scope shot by trained experts like these guys is definitely capable of that kind of performance.

239 posted on 01/04/2005 9:45:17 PM PST by Auntie Dem (Hey! Hey! Ho! Ho! Terrorist lovers gotta go!)
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To: Rockpile

Thanks for the post.


240 posted on 01/04/2005 10:00:09 PM PST by B4Ranch (((The lack of alcohol in my coffee forces me to see reality!)))
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