Posted on 12/26/2004 6:35:58 PM PST by Saberwielder
Nope, not even close. Try to read, comprehend and focus on the two specific questions before you (and not the questions you'd wish that I'd ask).
"This is serious stuff. These guys hold the keys to about a 100 nuclear warheads!" --Saberwielder at #1"These guys" and "hold the keys".
Post the proof to back up your reckless accusations against Mushi or retrack.
--Boot Hill
Sorry to bother....
Most NATO countries and former Soviet bloc nations have/had nuclear weapons that have security devices preventing unauthorized use. We put PALs on American nukes stored in NATO countries. But Pakistan's nukes don't have any, according to most reports.
Around the time of the attempts on Musharraf's life late in 2003, reports came out that the US has installed PALs on Pakistan's warheads. Strictly speaking this is illegal under American law because we cannot give such devices to non-NPT signatories. But given the sensitivity of this issue, it wouldn't be surprising if we did put them on Pakistani nukes, even if it was skirting legality under American law.
"lower level officers and enlisted men" actually "hold the keys to about a 100 nuclear warheads. Where's your proof for that reckless charge?
Therefore - you try to read, comprehend and focus on my replies in #35 and #40.
I have conclusively proven, with US govt and independent expert statements that substantiate my claim that lower level Pakistani officers and enlisted men hold the keys to Pakistan's nukes.
Stop moving the goalposts.
That may be interesting, but it way off point of what I asked. What you still haven't addressed at all is the following:
"This is serious stuff. These guys hold the keys to about a 100 nuclear warheads!" --Saberwielder at #1"These guys" and "hold the keys".
Post the proof to back up your reckless and false defamation against Mushi and Bush's foreign policy in Pakistan, or retrack it.
--Boot Hill
Is the report you were commission for on the net for us to read or was it classified er something ?
But since you got beat in the debate, you are trying to shift the goalposts.
I notice that in that same post (#30), you say:
Obviously, the actual keys to the Pakistani nukes are held by the general staff that prosecuted these miscreants.
Do you have any proof that the same men - individuals who prosecuted the specific individuals mentioned in the article actually hold the keys to Pakistan's nukes?
If you cannot prove that those specific Generals hold the nuclear keys, do you admit to being a liar?
Two can play this game.
That would be incorrect, once again. How about instead of you trying to conjure up your own idea about what I "understood", let me set you straight. First, review what you posted in #1...
"This is serious stuff. These guys hold the keys to about a 100 nuclear warheads!" --Saberwielder at #1That was in the first post after the thread article, and as such, the immediate antecedent to your use of the phrase "These guys..." was the thread article, whose central thesis, in both title and opening paragraph, was "30 Pakistan Army and Air Force personnel". You subsequently refined your description of "these guys" (in post #22), as being "lower level officers and enlisted men". So what we were left with is that "these guys" were...
"30 Pakistan Army and Air Force personnel" who were "lower level officers and enlisted men".Now even if we accept your novel spin and last-minute retraction, that maybe you were referring to "army officers and enlisted men in general", and not the 30 soldiers that were at the heart of the thread article, we are still left with the second question unanswered.
Post the proof to back up your reckless and false defamation against Mushi, and Bush's foreign policy in Pakistan, or retract it.
--Boot Hill
It took me about two minutes of searching, if that.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011221-12.html
...I [President Bush] call upon President Musharraf to take decisive action against Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed and other terrorist organizations, their leaders, finances, and activities...
Now, this is the part where you come back saying "Bush didn't really criticize Musharraf!"
To which I respond with "This doesn't exactly fit in with your #28." (I call upon President Musharraf to take decisive action against Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed and other terrorist organizations, their leaders, finances, and activities.)
Hmm-that's not exactly criticism,world leaders constantly call on others-both friendly & not so friendly to take actions.Tony Blair called upon Bush to try for a second resolution on Iraq,but didn't take on Bush when that didn't happen.I can give numerous examples involving US-Israel("telling Sharon to not kill Arafat"),India-Russia relations to name a few.
Criticism involves taking the leader to task.Like specifically asking him what Pakistani C-130s were doing in North Korea in 2002? or the presence of Saudi dignitaries at Pakistan's nuclear facilities & missile tests & REPRIMANDING HIM.
From the link you posted-
"President Musharraf has condemned the terrorist attacks on the Legislature in Srinagar and on the Indian Parliament. He has said that he would move against those involved in the attacks. As President Musharraf does so, he will have our full support. "
Which is what I said. But it's also not "Musharraf can do no wrong!" And I wasn't gonna spend anymore time on the search, quite frankly. The U.S. has been very hesitant to publicly criticize Musharraf, and for good reason.
"The U.S. has been very hesitant to publicly criticize Musharraf, and for good reason."
I wonder just for how long can the US afford to go on hesitating to publicly criticize Musharraf. Sooner or later they will have to face the reality ....I just hope its not too late by then.
The U.S. government faced reality concerning Pakistan long ago. There's a difference between knowing something and publicly blasting someone for it.
Fair enough. But if the Bush admin knows the reality about Pakistan, then why have they not pressed Musharraf even privately to give access to A.Q.Khan, clean up his education system etc?
The lack of results in these areas show that Musharraf doesn't take our concerns seriously. We know that a public hint gets results.
That's why I said that our current policy is "Musharraf can do no wrong."
Alright then me put it this way : I wonder just for how long can the US afford to molly coddle Musharraf even as it sees the reality. And just how long is the US ready to wait and watch (inspite of knowing the reality) and allow Musharraf to have his way (i.e do nothing but provide lip service and support terrorists thru' the back door) before it decided that enough is enough and Musharraf needs a public blasting. Cos by then public blasting wouldnt be much use if Pakistan pulls an Iran on u guys.
If "nothing but lip service" equals delivery of Abu Zubaydah, Hambali, and al-Nashiri (IIRC), to name a few, then I'll take some more of Mushy's service. (<<<Things that sound dirty, but aren't!)
If you are a rancher and live next to a forest full of wolves and the forest ranger says I'll give you one wolf a month but will not let you clean up the forest, don't the odds dictate that sooner or later someone gets sloppy and lets a wolf into your ranch?
There's a long term war on terror going on Coop.
If you can honestly say the AQ infrastructure has been left intact despite Pakistani actions, then I think we're done with this discussion. Good day.
What are your metrics for deciding if Al Qaeda is dead or dying? What are the concrete items? Are you satisfied if the Paks cough up an Al Qaeda #3 every few months and announce arrests of #4.75 and #5.63 in between?
Did you notice that every time we arrest an Al Qaeda # 3, another one pops up with last known location in a Pakistani city? Who and what gives these guys sustenance?
I don't question Musharraf's sincerety in helping us thwart specific plots or arrest specific figures. I'm sure that he wants to avoid any attacks on us. But I question his intent to reform his country fundamentally. Do you know that not a single jihadi madrassa has been closed by Musharraf? Where do you think the next generation of Al Qaeda is coming from? Why aren't all the Pakistani people organiations who gave shelter to the Zubaidahs and the KSMs eliminated yet?
We have collaboratively accomplished a great deal since 9/11, but the swamp that breeds the snakes is still largely undrained. How long will you keep catching snakes?
I only see one liners in reply from you. I have an open mind and am ready to be corrected if factual arguments can be made. But are you ready to drop your shibboleths?
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