Posted on 12/15/2004 11:24:22 AM PST by Tumbleweed_Connection
A recall election is now set for an Estes Park, Colo., trustee who refuses to stand up and recite the Pledge of Allegiance during the Town Board meetings.
"I have not been standing for the Pledge of Allegiance due to a conflict I have with the wording of the pledge, specifically the words 'under God,'" Councilman David Habecker said.
Habecker said it's a violation of church and state to include the words in the pledge and for that reason, he won't stand.
The board began reciting the pledge before meetings earlier this year at the suggestion of Trustee Lori Jeffrey-Clark. She suggested it as a way to show respect for the country during wartime.
Jeffrey-Clark said Habecker is expressing his personal views, not representing townspeople, when he sits down.
Habecker, who's served on the Town Board for 12 years, said he doesn't oppose the meaning of the pledge, and considers himself a patriot.
But some other council members and residents are upset about his actions and have enough signatures to hold a recall election. That recall election will occur Tuesday, Feb. 15.
All residents will vote on whether to recall David Habecker and a choice for his replacement in the event the recall passes. The recall is expected to cost a few thousand dollars.
"I'm sad for the community, that there is that much intolerance in our community. But if the people want to have a voice in what's going on, this is their way of doing it. And I will respect whatever the wishes of the community are," Habecker said.
Estes Park, which has about 5,500 residents, is the eastern gateway to Rocky Mountain National Park about 60 miles northwest of Denver.
How was he sworn in?
I'd like to get down a rather large bet on the things you predict.
The last sentence is already true, except for paganism and moose-limbism.
No, the last sentence is a blanket statement which makes it untrue. Not that some don't look down on things, but then again, many look down on them.
That's what elections are for. They can vote against him next time.
Thank you! A lone voice of reason on this thread. This recall election is nothing but a waste of time and money.
Since when does swearing allegiance to the national flag have anything to do with executing one's local duties as a trustee in Estes Park, CO? The council members seemed to have been able to get along just fine for years without reciting the Pledge.
The 'separation of church and state' as referred to by Thomas Jefferson (who was not involved with the writing of the First Amendment to begin with) was originally to be applied only to the Federal Government. Later, it was extended to apply to the State Government. It now applies to the Town Government. This has gotten way out of hand. How long before it applies to the household, which is also (though not solely) a political unit?
In essence, if you don't believe that the Nation (not the magazine) is subordinate to something, yes, you are a communist.
The Declaration talks a lot about rights granted by the Creator. The truth is, our Republic rests on the bedrock of the idea that our rights are granted by God, not the State. If they are granted by the State, the State can take them away or modify them. Europe does not subordinate the Nation to God -- or anything else.
God need not exist, but God is an important legal concept and plays a big role in the founding and sustaining of the country. Call it "Natural Law" if you are that fundamentalist and extremist in your atheism.
Recalled? I'd like to see Republicans making even MORE of an issue of this in upcoming elections. I'm really surprised that the Republican party doesn't REALLY make a serious issue out of the anti-Americanism and Anti-Christ[ian} nature of some of these kooks.
See the ANTI-DNC Web Portal at ---> http://www.noDNC.com
So, when Trustee Lori Jeffrey-Clark suggested reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, she wasn't promoting her personal beliefs? First of all, the Pledge was written by a socialist to promote socialism. Secondly, it has no place in local politics. Sure, Habecker is confused about the meaning of the First Amendment ("under God" is not a violation of the separation of church and state) but he shouldn't be expected to recite the Pledge in the first place.
Respecting an 'establishment of religion'. Before a law can be a violation of the first amendment, it must first be determined exactly what 'establishment of religion' we're talking about, which is not the same as religion itself.
The belief that God exists is a belief held by millions of people. It is also rejected by many. However, merely because a particular belief is not held by everyone does not give the courts the right to deny acknowledgment of this belief in law. Some beliefs will always win out over others. The determination of which beliefs win is what politics is for, not the courts.
Merely by labeling any particular belief 'religious' the courts can give themselves the right to severly restrict that belief from public discourse, which, ironically, is directlyl contrary to what the first amendment is all about in the first place.
So if someone doesn't believe that the Nation is subordinate to a Deity, they're a communist?You do realize that "communist" has a specific meaning, right?In essence, if you don't believe that the Nation (not the magazine) is subordinate to something, yes, you are a communist.
The Declaration talks a lot about rights granted by the Creator. The truth is, our Republic rests on the bedrock of the idea that our rights are granted by God, not the State. If they are granted by the State, the State can take them away or modify them. Europe does not subordinate the Nation to God -- or anything else.Actually, Europe does have established religions. It's cost them several wars.God need not exist, but God is an important legal concept and plays a big role in the founding and sustaining of the country. Call it "Natural Law" if you are that fundamentalist and extremist in your atheism.
Te Declaration was a documentation of "why", not "how". The Articles of Confederation was our first documentation of "how". The Constitution was our second, and is what has made us great. It recognizes no subordination to any Deity.
-Eric
He should be hanged. He doesn't believe in God, so we should be indifferent as to the morality of his existence.If I read this right, it is perhaps the most wacko post I've ever seen on FR and DU combined. Are you seriously proposing executing people for their religious beliefs?
-Eric
You're right. I believe I should have said:
In essence, if you don't believe that the Nation (not the magazine) is subordinate to something, yes, you are a facist.
And that would be true, with either definition of Nation.
Actually, Europe does have established religions.
That's not what I'm talking about. In fact, it proves my point. The state Church is merely an arm of the State and is held beneath the interest of the government.
It's cost them several wars.
Not recently. Unless you call any political philosophy a religion. Which I do.
Te Declaration was a documentation of "why", not "how". The Articles of Confederation was our first documentation of "how". The Constitution was our second, and is what has made us great. It recognizes no subordination to any Deity.
It also doesn't recognize the law of gravity. Nonetheless, gravity exists.
Besides, the Constitution does endorse the Christian religion. Any guesses how? (Hint: Thermador)
Ha, ha.
They're mostly liberals! They have done nothing but protest their whole lives and never took the time for schoolin'!
I've been saying for sometime--and I believe it more fervently by the day--that within twenty years, mainstream Christians will be thought of and treated like lunatic fringe, about like militia/survivalist types are perceived today. The buzzword will of course be that we are "haters."
MM
BUH-BYE, DAVE!!!
I arranged a first date at the Hollywood Bowl and bought tickets (I can't even remember who we saw, the evening was sooooo memorable).
When they played the The Star-Spanled Banner at the beginning of the evening's concert I stood with the rest of the crowd and started singing...........
.......I suddenly noticed my date was still seated. I nudged and got the most "I'll kill you" glare I've ever gotten.
Needless to say, I'm still single.
who would you rather have in office?
how about a g-d fearing,loving christian
dang,
there's that pesky diety name again.
how does this stuff keep getting put into these oaths?
dag nabbit
holy moly
rut roh
by golly
i just aint gonna stand for this no longer. :)
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