Posted on 12/12/2004 4:19:58 AM PST by Leifur
I posted these posts on discussions about the exodus of the dutch middleclass, because of the troubles that country is going through because of multiculturalism and beeing way to tolerant. Then I was urged by a freeper to post those as a vanity (although I did not know what that was, or that it was even allowed), so I do so now. With hope for getting good recommendations, support and critisism for how best to promote conservative values in Europe.
1.post: I first want to underline that I am an christian-pentacostal conservative from a European country. I am also very patriotical toward my own country, to a point of collectivism, although beeing also staunchly individualistic and libertarian in economic terms. Here is no conservative movement, although I have found few people with similar views in my party, the Independence party, pro market, pro individualistic, but also with old fashined conservative roots, although the majority is what you would call liberals. But there is no other party, except maybe the Liberal party, wich is a split from my party and although the name does not mean much for most of them, is not for me.
But I am thinking, how are we, the European conservatives, to respond to this, that is what is happening with the immigration and rise of islamic fundamentalisms at our backdoor, due to political correctness? Of course first we have to curb immigration, and there are rising anti-immigration movements in most European countries, except mine, as some of the mainstream parties here have taken this issue face on (that is my party mostly) and taken steps to curb immigration, also much more could be done. But there are strong factions within my party that are not happy with those actions.
But what then? We have to make sure that our society is not divided into separate communities, but I at least do not want to use fanatical secularism to do it, like they are f.e. doing in France, my country has christian roots that I want to preserve, actually is there now a high danger that secularism will become a government agenda, because the constitution is beeing changed, and the separation of church and state could be a result of that.
Recently the leader of the Christian democratic Union of Germany, the East born Angela Merker wanted Deutchland (Germany) to preserve its christian roots. But the idea of christianity and christian values is pretty vague in my country, and even more in most of Europe.
Gay rights is an openly championed agenda, but those of us that oppose it do have to be in hiding in all but name, abortions are not discussed and most want it to be a choise for women, although our laws are not as extreme-liberal as yours, only allowing them for three months (fourth month is optional if a doctor approves, wich they most often do not) and then not quite on demand, although that beeing how the system is implemented, and care of the neighbour is provided by the all encompassing state, leaving little room for christian charity, and it is better for your income to be separated than married, and it is nearly impossible for families to allow one of the parent to stay home, as daycare is higly subsidised (with resulting high taxes) and home schooling is effectively banned.
This is the situation in my country, and it is similar in most of the European countries. There are of course some good things, like christianity is taught in school (although beeing optional for parents to obt their childrens out of that), christian holidays are government protected, celebrated in schools and publicicly and so on, although these things are thaught to be old fashioned, outdated and are mostly fasing out and will disapear in near future, unless there is a revival of conservatism like there was in the US.
But now comes the strange situation we are in, that revival will have to rely on two, it seams opposing elements. One is that the infant conservative movement (wich I regard myself part of) will have to encompass both anti immigration, patriotism toward your own country (and thus sceptical attitude to say the least toward the EU) AND the people of the continent that are the most conservatives when it comes to things like gay marriage, abortion, the importance of the family and such thing, the muslim immigrants.
But how on earth to come to that I am not sure, but it is in my oppinion absolutely neccasery, as if those same folks can not let their views be reflected through the democratic institutions of the country on these basic social issues, due to political correctness, they will become disafected with the society and an easy pray for islamic fundamentalism of Osama bin Laden and Pim Fortuyn and Van Gogh´s killers. Do you, the conservative base of the US have any ideas for us, the small conservative movement of Europe? Can you help us in any way? Best wishes, and congratulation with your electoral victory recently,
Leifur, from Iceland.
2. post: To: bill1952; chiller; Eric in the Ozarks; Leo Carpathian; PGalt; CROSSHIGHWAYMAN; Lizavetta
I think you don´t fully understand how complicated and hard our situation is. We don´t have any religious base to rely on, except maybe the few people that are in free churches like mine, and the muslims, wich are of course against curbing the immigration.
To Lizavetta and bill952. I am, as an Icelander, pretty informed about the situation in Denmark, we having been under their rule for centuries until recently. And I was there just this summer. The danish situation can maybe give us the most hope, but also the bleakest situation aivalable. There is now a conservative-liberal coalition in government under the leadership of Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the chairman of the liberal party "venstre" (wich essentially means left, but is right winged party, it is that old, Rasmussen was in his younger years a staunch libertarian, even against the welfare society) but the anti immigration, nearly fascistic national party of Pia Kjersgard, supports the government although not being part of it (not allowed to due to its nature). But it was due to its popularity mostly that the leading socialdemocratic party lost its long standing majority in Denmark, wich´s immigration policy is the basis of the current troubles.
Denmark is a christian country, the queen (wich was a princess over Iceland when she was born), as head of state is also the protecter of the national church, and the danes are fairly conservative when it comes to the queen and the church, but that is maybe partly due to the problems and they are not religous, although traditionalism is on the rise.
But the anti immigration movement could tilt in either way, towards defending the christian values of the society, and thus become essentially conservative´s, or they could, wich is even more likely and far more dangerous, tilt towards blaming the whole thing on religion by and large and come increasingly secular, to the point of a la french and turkish militant secularism. This is the problem I beliewe we face in the near future, if, that is only if, we overcome the socialdemocratical political correctness of today, that is if it does not encompass the anti immigration sentiment before the right does so.
The danger is that they will depict us as the same thing, the religious conservative christians and the muslims, and that the muslims moral values wich´s are partly compatible to christian moral values are, as they claim, inconsistent with the, essentially values, of the western world. That is in fact the stronger force now, as both Bush´s unpopularity and anathema to all religion is in majority. For example was the late Pim Fortuyn, wich started the pupular anti immigration party in the Nederlands openly gay and anti religious, he depicted the muslim immigrants as backward and incompatible with Dutch openness, freedom and liberalism.
On the right are also, specially in my country, strong libertarian movements wich are against all curbing of immigration, so here the libertarian-conservative coalition that is the resultant of recent victory for Bush is nonexistent.
About taking over the media, that is not possible. In most european countries you have state owned media, wich´s left leaning journalists can have practically free hand of promoting their leftists propaganda, and it is fairly impossible to compete with those. We are now in the strange situation of having most of the free media as a part of one company, with strong ties to the opposition socialdemocratic party. We are though using the internet, but our numbers are scarce.
So you see, there are big problems facing Europe, but I will not move west, and leave my country to become ruined, specially if I have to give up my language and speak English in conservative US, wich I thought was a melting pott with many languages and cultures living side by side. But that model is not for Europe, certeinly not for Iceland, as we are an nation state, not an immigration society, althoug economically, and when it comes to christian, western values, it is certeinly a model we should embrace.
Leifur Es. One thing Lizavetta, do you speak the language of your mother? Or should I ask in Danish: Taler du dansk?
3. post: To: Unam Sanctam
I agree with you that the libertarian argument works often very good, and in my environment I use that very often. But I am also a little against those very ideas, that is, I am not opposed to allowing muslims to practise their beliews, but I want to defend the christian roots of my society, you can call me hipocrat, but I beliewe that it is the moral right of my society to protect its christian and religious values through the government, the schools and official holidays.
I saw some where here on Freerepublic that some big supermarket chain in the US is having open on christmas day. I understand the people´s consern about that, and I beliewe the first line of defence is the governments right to do as we do today, as our constitution states that Iceland is a christian society essentially (still thankfully), to ban all (or most) shops and companies to operate on both Christmas Eve (partly, after six o´clock), Christmas day, The Good friday and Easter. This is our heritage and we should not have to yeald that because there are some people that are not religious or have different religion.
Of course we make it clear that our immigration conserts are not racists, although they are depicted as thus from our political opponents, wich some idiots that are racists and have talked also against immigration, have helped them to do. But although I beliewe that having the national church as a government entity has both weakened the church and christianity in Iceland, I beliewe we should continue not having separation between church and state, althoug I would like to see the church to become more independent, and less politically correct, and in my case I have allready voted with my feet (actually my forefathers did) and am not part of the national church.
But I am still christian and I celebrate all the same holidays and I want the society to be christian, both in name like today and practise like the US. Best wishes, and marry Christmas to you all.
That is probably the best thing one can do in these circumstances. I hope Christians in other countries who see their beliefs being trampled on by their governments, will hold fast to the truth and know that American Christians are on your side, and consider you a part of our family.
The Antichrist iron curtain is descending upon the entire world and it is important that we remain strong in our faith, and no doubt many of us will see outright persecution from the Muslims and our politicians who are terrified of their power.
Here in America we are ruled by a well financed and Communist backed group called the ACLU. They run our legal system and doing battle with them is iffy at best, as they are so well connected. They have as their main goal to destroy every vestige of Christianity in America. The Democrat Party is their party of choice, and Christians suffer when Democrats are in power here. So I'd say American Christians are a little better off than European Christians but not that much.
Don't you think the lightning rod will be when Islamofascists blow up a few buildings in Europe, say nightclubs as in Bali, for instance, or sidewalk cafes? At that point Europe will throw in the towel or get serious about protecting western civilization. The Netherlands is already deporting illegal Muslims, I believe...and at least discussing deporting those who won't adopt the Dutch language and customs.
Believe in yourself and be of good cheer. It's amazing the effect you have on others when you 'think outside the box', creatively, and find ways to do what must be done without complaint. You're a shining example for others. Don't worry, they'll take up the torch. You're not alone. If you show the courage of your beliefs, you'll attract others. Besides, God is on your side.
And the internet's importance can't be overestimated. Truth will find a way.
"US conservatism and specially neo-conservatism (wich is not the same thing, although most European think it is) is so loathed here now."
My friends in Finland have the same impression of US conservatism. They cannot stand President Bush. I think it's because practically everything which they see of America has been filtered through their media. So your web page strikes me as a great idea.
A conservative reaction, I suggest is inevitable, for a very simple reason: socialism, whether it is cultural or economic, simply does not work. We have witnessed economic socialism slowly eroding away - albeit very slowly, and in fits and starts: even Germany is starting to loosen the shackles of the state. The recent killing of Theo Van Gogh and the re-examination of the role of the Muslim community in European life is going to force a similar change in the cultural sphere.
I suspect there will be a few more outrages before this becomes entrenched, but ironically, it is conservatism that will be the result of society's present contradictions, rather than socialism as Marx predicted.
Regards, Ivan
The key point is that Christianity must influence the state, and not the other way around. If the state influence the church, pentacostals won't find themselves in a comfortable position, to put it mildly. But if the state is not to influence the church, the state also cannot pay the ministers of the church. The influence of the church on the state must be political, in the influence of the church on the (voting) public.It has to be pointed out that we in the US are accustomed to a system which contains too much government influence on the church, in the system of income taxation in which donations to churches reduce the official income on which we have to pay taxes provided that the government recognizes the particular church to which you donate as a "charitable" organization. A flat tax without deductions, or a national sales tax, would eliminate that problem, and will be resisted for that reason among others by the leftists.
The second step is to understand that immigration is not bad, just unlimited immigration is bad. You must only allow those into your country who can be absorbed, who are willing to assimilate and not try to change your culture into one of their own.
If the Anti-Christian Leninistic Usurpers (ACLU) weren't controlling the courts, another group of marxiphiliacs would rise up to take their place.
The force of evil is powerful.
So you do not have free speech to criticise homosexuals and others who are driven by their Pagan desires, because of these laws?
Great point, although I believe that many of the "know-nothings" are in fact full of guile and know exactly what they are doing! If your objective is to undermine the Christian foundation of society, what better way to start than by blurring all distinctions between a bible-based orthodoxy and a jihad-based fanaticism.
When you think about it, it is actually quite an impressive piece of propaganda. In fact, is the logic all that much different than the "Bush is Hitler" mantra? Unfortunately a greater number may understand the falsehood of the latter statement than understand the distinction between orthodoxy and fanaticism.
Conservatism IS optimistic. If you read Reagan, William F. Buckley, Russell Kirk, Burke and others, you can not help but notice that each had a true love for living and was consistently optimistic. At the core of this optimism is Christian faith!
Maybe when they start attacking the foundations of Eu. Blowing up the elites hauntings. Nightclubs really only effect the "little" people. It would take museums and palaces to get some of these Govs to budge.
Great advice.
The children of darkness are more cunning than the children of light. The problem with so many Christians is that they vote politics before their religious beliefs. That has brought us an ACLU dominated court system, but the Christians who vote for Democrats are too stupid to understand this. Or don't care.
Yeah, I can beliewe that is a good investment, but sadly home schooling is illegal in my country. How is it, do you have to fulfill some obligations before you can start homeschooling your kids? How about age, for how long can you homeschool them, and can you choose what you teach them? How does come out financially, do you get some tax reduction, or does the money the education costs for your community partly go back to you? As you maybe see is the idea of homeschooling pretty new and alien to mee.
Yeah, I loved Independent people to (not the ending though) and I also loved the book Íslandsklukkan (The Icelandic clock????). These two books are it seems one of Laxness least socialistic, although the ending in Independent people shows his belief in the socialistic cause of the unions. He was an exceptional writer, but a little lost person, going from beliew in socialism, then getting religion (becomin Catholic) and then loosing it again, he is still fought over today, thera are two books after two differendt authors about him now promoted as the essential christmas gift.
Different states have different requirements. In Virginia, we simply kept a low profile and asked no one's permission. In North Carolina, the record keeping is so minimal that we're humoring "the powers that be," and sending them a letter once or twice a year. For us, the biggest single expense is the voluntary sacrifice of one income. We receive no help from any government agency. However, the reduction in income (plus faithful support of our church) has, on occasion, reduced our federal income taxes to single-digit percentages.
Our oldest two (21 and almost 20) are Dean's List students at NC State University, now. We were their primary teachers all the way K-12. We occasionally contracted with tutors for specialized instruction. Our daughter took Vicky and me out for lunch on separate occasions last year, just to thank us for raising her the way we did.
We are re-starting the cycle with 8 and 6 year old daughters. Laura is learning to read from a phonetic textbook. Beth is teaching herself Esperanto and writing regular essays on the computer. They are both memorizing the Westminister Shorter Catechism answers one by one.
I have never met a home school family that regretted doing do. For us, the biggest payoff was having time to spend with our kids, getting to know them, sharing our lives and adventures with them. We love to see the older two thriving on their own, now, with unimpaired bonds of familial affection. They also know that they do not owe The State their lives, or even 30 hours of their lives per week.
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