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On Plato, the Early Church, and Modern Science: An Eclectic Meditation
November 30, 2004 | Jean F. Drew

Posted on 11/30/2004 6:21:11 PM PST by betty boop

On Plato, the Early Church, and Modern Science: An Eclectic Meditation
By Jean F. Drew

God, purposing to make the universe most nearly like the every way perfect and fairest of intelligible beings, created one visible living being, containing within itself all living beings of the same natural order.

Thus does Plato (d. 347 B.C.) succinctly describe how all that exists is ultimately a single, living organism. At Timaeus20, he goes on to say:

“There exists: first, the unchanging form, uncreated and indestructible, admitting no modification and entering no combination … second, that which bears the same name as the form and resembles it … and third, space which is eternal and indestructible, which provides a position for everything that comes to be.”

And thus we find a description of the universe in which Being and Existence (Becoming) — the one God and the multiplicity of things — are bound together as a single living reality whose extension is mediated by Space (which for us moderns implies Time).

Our aim in this essay is to define these ideas and their relationships, and trace their historical development from the ancient world to the present. Taking a page from the late Eric Voegelin (1901–1985, philosopher of history specializing in the evolution of symbolization), we will follow a history-of-ideas approach to these issues. Along the way we will find that not only philosophy and cosmology, but also theology and even modern science can illuminate these seminal conceptions of Platonic thought. We must begin at the beginning, that is, with God — who is absolute Being in Plato’s speculation, of whom the cosmos itself is but the image (eikon) or reflection.

When Plato speaks of God (or when Aristotle does for that matter, as in e.g., Nicomachean Ethics), he is not referring to the Olympian gods, to Zeus, Hera, Athena, Poseidon, and the rest of the gang of “immortals.” For the Olympians are like man in that they are creatures of a creating God. Not only that, but they are a second generation of gods, the first having reigned in the antediluvian Age of Chronos; which is to say that the Olympians’ rule or law is not everlasting, but contingent. Thus they are not self-subsistent, but dependent (contingent) on a principle outside of themselves. We might say that the central difference between Plato’s God and the Olympians consists in the fact that the latter are “intracosmic” gods, and the former is “extracosmic,” that is, transcending all categories and conditions of space-time reality. In contrast, the intracosmic gods are subject to change, to contingency; and so, though they may truly be said to exist in some fashion, cannot be said to possess true Being. (More on these distinctions in a minute.)

It is clear that for Plato, God is the “Beyond” of the universe, or in other words, utterly transcendent, perfectly self-subsistent Being, the “uncaused cause” of all the multiplicity of existents in the universe. In yet other words we can say that, for Plato, the cosmos is a theophany, a manifestation or “presence” of the divine Idea — in Christian parlance, the Logos if I might draw that association — in the natural world.

As Wolfgang Smith notes, “Christian teaching is based upon the doctrine of the Logos, the Word of God, a term which in itself clearly suggests the idea of theophany. Moreover, what is implicit in the famous Prologue of St. John [“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” (John 1:1–5)] is openly affirmed by St. Paul when he declares that “the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world have been clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His power and Godhead” (Rom. 1:20) … The indisputable fact is that at its deepest level Christianity perceives the cosmos as a self-revelation of God.” [Wolfgang Smith, Cosmos and Transcendence, 1984]

Being and Existence (Becoming)
Being is a concept so difficult that it comes close to eluding our grasp altogether. It is utterly beyond space and time; imperishable; entirely self-subsistent, needing nothing from outside itself in order to be complete; essential; immutable; and eternally perduring. Contrast this with the concept of existence, regarding which Plato asks “how can that which is never in the same state be anything?” And this is the clue to the profound difference between being and existence: The existing things of this world are mutable and transient.

We must in my opinion begin by distinguishing between that which always is and never becomes from that which is always becoming but never is. The one is apprehensible by intelligence with the aid of reasoning, being eternally the same, the other is the object of opinion and irrational sensation, coming to be and ceasing to be, but never fully real. In addition, everything that becomes or changes must do so owing to some cause; for nothing can come to be without a cause. [Timaeus, 3:28]

Smith writes of the existing or “becoming” things that

“… they come upon the scene, we know not from whence; they grow, change, and decay; and at last they disappear, to be seen no more. The physical cosmos itself, we are told, is a case in point: it, too, has made its appearance, perhaps some twenty billion years ago, and will eventually cease to exist [i.e., finally succumbing, we are told, to thermodynamic entropy or “heat death”]. What is more, even now, at this very moment, all things are passing away. ‘Dead is the man of yesterday,’ wrote Plutarch, ‘for he dies into the man of today: and the man of today is dying into the man of tomorrow.’ Indeed, ‘to be in time’ is a sure symptom of mortality. It is indicative, not of being, but of becoming, of ceaseless flux.”

All the multiplicity of existents in the universe are in a state of becoming and passing away. But Plato’s great insight is that all things in the state of becoming — that is, all existing things — are whatever they are because they are participations in Being. That is to say, “we perceive the trace of being in all that exists,” writes Smith, “and that is why we say, with reference to any particular thing, that it is.” Existence, in other words, is contingent on Being.

But we wonder: In what way is this possible? And if existents participate in being, what is that Being in which they participate?

In Exodus 3:14 Moses has experienced a theophany: While tending his flock on Mount Horeb, suddenly he hears the voice of God issuing from a burning bush: God is speaking to him! Reverentially, Moses inquires of God what is His name (meaning: what is His nature or character).

And God said unto Moses, I AM WHO AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

God has told Moses: that He is Being (“I AM”). And the strong implication is that there is no “other” being: “I alone AM.” For “I” is plainly singular in form.

Smith draws the crucial point, “God alone IS. But how are we to understand this? ‘It seems to me,’ writes St. Gregory of Nyssa, ‘that at the time the great Moses was instructed in the theophany he came to know that none of those things which are apprehended by sense perception and contemplated by the understanding really subsist, but that the transcendent essence and cause of the universe, on which everything depends, alone subsists.’ But why? Does not the world exist? Are there not myriads of stars and galaxies and particles of dust, each existing in its own right? And yet we are told that the transcendent essence alone subsists. ‘For even if the understanding looks upon any other existing things,’ the great theologian goes on to say, ‘reason observes in absolutely none of them the self-sufficiency by which they could exist without participating in true Being. On the other hand, that which is always the same, neither increasing nor diminishing, immutable to all change whether to better or to worse (for it is far removed from the inferior and has no superior), standing in need of nothing else, alone desirable, participated in by all but not lessened by their participation — this is truly real Being.’”

Smith continues: “In the words of St. Gregory, ‘that which is always the same, neither increasing nor diminishing, immutable to all change … is truly real being.’ As concerns ‘existing things,’ on the other hand, the teaching implies that these entities are always changing, always in a state of flux, so that their very existence is in a way a process of becoming, in which however nothing is actually produced. This has been said time and again, beginning with Heraclitus and the Buddhist philosophers. And there can be little doubt that it is true: even modern physics, as we can see, points to the same conclusion. Only there is another side to the coin which is not always recognized. Existent things — the very flux itself — presuppose what Gregory and the Platonists have termed ‘a participation in Being.’ The point is that relative or contingent existences cannot stand alone. They have not an independent existence, a being of their own. ‘In Him we live, and move, and have our being,’ says St. Paul….”

St. Augustine confirms the Platonic insight this way:

I beheld these others beneath Thee, and saw that they neither altogether are, nor altogether are not. An existence they have, because they are from Thee; and yet no existence, because they are not what Thou art. For only that really is, that remains unchangeably.

Space
Space is the third essential term of the Platonic cosmology: It is the matrix in which living things and all other existents participate in Being. Plato’s creation myth — the Myth of the Demiurge in Timaeus — elucidates the Platonic conception of Space.

For Plato, the God of the Beyond is so “beyond” that, when it came time for creating the Cosmos, he didn’t even do it himself. He sent an agent: the Demiurge, a mythical being endued by God to be in divine likeness of God’s own perfect love, truth, beauty, justice, and goodness. The embodiment of divine perfections, the Demiurge wishes to create creatures just as good and beautiful as himself, according to the standard of the divine Idea — a direct analog, it seems to me, of the Logos theory of the ancient Church. Indeed, Eric Voegelin sees in the Demiurge the symbol of Incarnation [Order and History Vol. 3: Plato and Aristotle, 1957]:

“The Demiurge is the symbol of Incarnation, understood not as the result of the process but as the process itself, as the permanent tension in reality between the taxis of form or idea and the ataxia of formlessness.”

Similarly to the Christian account, the Demiurge in a certain way creates ex nihilo — that is, out of Nothing. At first glance, Plato is seen specifying, not a pre-existing “material” but a universal field of pure possibility called Chora, “Space.” Perhaps we may find in this concept a strong analogy to Isaac Newton’s concept of Absolute Space (see below).

Chora seems to indicate the idea of an eternal, universal field of pure stochastic potentiality that needs to become “activated” in order to bring actual beings into existence. In itself, it is No-thing, i.e., “nothing.” This “activation” the Demiurge may not effect by fiat: He does not, for instance, “command” to “Let there be Light!” The main tool at his disposal is Peitho, “persuasion.”

And if Chora is not so persuaded, it will remain in a state of “nothingness.” It will remain unformed, in the condition of ataxia. Of itself it is “Nothing”; by itself, it can do nothing. It cannot generate anything out of itself, not even matter in primaeval form.

And thus Plato introduces the figure of the Demiurge into his creation myth, symbolizing form or idea — the principle of (formative) taxia that draws (formless) ataxia into existence. We moderns might be tempted to describe the Demiurge as constituting an “information set” together with an “energy source,” who “persuades” the pure stochastic potentiality of formless, absolute, empty space into actualized form, and thus existence. From the cosmic standpoint, he makes unity out of multiplicity, in harmony and geometrical proportion:

“The best bond is the one that effects the closest unity between itself and the terms it is combining; and this is best done by a continued geometrical proportion.” [Timaeus, 4]

Thus the Demiurge is a kind of “divine geometer,” producing the forms (or mathematical ideas) that Chora can be persuaded to conform to, and thus come into existence.

But the Demiurge does more than just get things started: As bearer of the divine Idea — as pure love and beauty and goodness and truth — he continues always persuading Chora to generate creatures as like himself as possible (i.e., reflecting his own divine qualities at whatever generic stage), throughout all eternity. Thus creation is a continuous process in space-time. Moreover, it is the source and driver of evolution as a universal natural process.

Through the ongoing activity of the Demiurge, men and the world are constantly being informed and renewed by the divine Idea; and thus a unified cosmic whole, a “One Cosmos,” a universal order comes into being at the intersection of time and timelessness, of immanent and transcendent reality, in the medium of Space (and Time).

Compare the Platonic creation myth with the philosophy of Dionysius the [Pseudo-]Areopagite, said to be the Greek converted by St. Paul in Acts, 17:34. For Dionyius, the “names of God” — the divine qualities — are goodness, being, life, wisdom, power, and justice. Joseph Stiglmayr writes [Cath. Encycl. at the entry for Dionysius the Pseudo-Areopagite], that for Dionysius, God is

“… the One Being (to hen), transcending all quality and predication, all affirmation and negation, and all intellectual conception, [Who] by the very force of His love and goodness gives to beings outside Himself their countless gradations, unites them in the closest bonds (proodos), keeps each by His care and direction in its appointed sphere, and draws them again in an ascending order to Himself (epistrophe) … all created things [proceed] from God by the exuberance of being in the Godhead (to hyperpleres), its outpouring and overflowing … and as a flashing forth from the sun of the Deity. Exactly according to their physical nature created things absorb more or less the radiated light, which, however, grows weaker the farther it descends. As the mighty root sends forth a multitude of plants which it sustains and controls, so created things owe their origin and conservation to the All-Ruling Deity…. Patterned upon the original of Divine love, righteousness, and peace, is the harmony that pervades the universe…. All things tend to God, and in Him are merged and completed, just as the circle returns into itself, as the radii are joined at the centre, or as the numbers are contained in unity.”

The Platonic resonances seem unmistakeable in these lines. It appears that both Platonic speculation and the Logos doctrine of the ancient Church as articulated by Dionysius are in agreement that Creator must be “beyond” Creation in order to resonate with it — which resonance is what makes the universe to be alive — i.e., a living universe.

C. A. Dubrey points out [Cath. Encycl. at the entry “Teleology”], that the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas makes it clear that, “Intrinsic finality [we are to think of this as a blend or merger of efficient and final causes in the Aristotelian sense] consists in the fact that every being has within itself a natural tendency whereby its activity is directed towards the perfection of its own nature…. St. Thomas does not hesitate to speak of ‘natural appetite,’ ‘natural inclination,’ and even ‘intention of nature,’ [we moderns might be tempted to add ‘instinct’ to this list] to mean that every being has within itself a directive principle of activity. Accordingly, God does not direct creatures to their ends from outside, but through their own nature…. The Divine plan of creation is carried out by the various beings themselves acting in conformity with their nature.

When, however, this finality is called immanent, this expression must not be understood in a pantheistic sense, as if the intelligence which the world manifests were to be identified with the world itself, but in the sense that the immediate principle of finality is immanent in every being…. Thus the unconscious finality in the world leads to the conclusion that there must be an intelligent cause of the world.” [Emphasis added.]

Aquinas’ insight, and also Plato’s, evokes a reconsideration of Isaac Newton’s concept of Absolute Space. Possibly this may be understood in the following terms. First, Absolute Space is “empty” space. Second, it is not a property of God, but an effect of His Presence; i.e., we advert to theophany again. The question then arises, in what “where” or “when” does this theophany take place? Perhaps Newton’s answer would be: In the beginning, and continuously thereafter. Second, it has been suggested that Newton intends us to understand Absolute Space as the sensorium Dei: “God constitutes space and time through his eternity and omnipresence” [ existendo semper et ubique, durationem et spatium consitutit: Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, 3d ed., 1726]. Wolfhart Pannenberg writes,

“Now there are a number of good reasons — suggested by both philosophical and scientific thought — to consider time and space as inseparable. Einstein’s field concept comprises space, time, and energy. It takes the form of a geometrical description, and this seems to amount to a spatialization of time. The totality of space, time, and energy or force are all properties of a cosmic field.

“Long before our own age a theological interpretation of this subject matter had been proposed, and it was Isaac Newton who offered this proposal. It too referred everything to space or, more precisely, to the correlation of force as in the case of a force like gravitation acting at a distance. Newton’s well-known conception of space as sensory of God (sensorium Dei) did not intend to ascribe to God an organ of sense perception, the like of which God does not need, according to Newton, because of divine omnipresence. Rather, Newton took space as the medium of God’s creative presence at the finite place of his creatures in creating them.” [Wolfhart Pannenberg, Toward a Theology of Nature, 1993]

Thus the infinite takes priority over every finite experience, including intellectual experience — a position decisively argued by Descartes, as Pannenberg avers, “in his thesis that the idea of God is a prior condition in the human mind for the possibility of any other idea, even that of the ego itself.”

* * * * * *

The Influence of Platonic Speculation on the Early History of the Church
D. Edmund Joaquin, an insightful and gracious Christian friend, writes, “We understand that the universe is created and sustained by the Word [the Logos], and not only that, but by the Word sounding. God sustains the universe consciously and actively. He has not gone away and left us. In fact, He reveals Himself to us, and His final revelation is in the person of Christ [the Logos]. Christ is not an abstract aspect of God, like wisdom. He is God. He is God incarnating in the world that He himself has made.”

Joaquin further observes that “[the Gospel of] John is written to the Greeks and put into words that they could understand.” It seems there’s a mystery buried in here somewhere. Consider: Socrates was the teacher of Plato, who was the teacher of Aristotle, who was the teacher of Alexander — and Alexander spread Greek culture throughout Eurasia, the Middle East, and the Indian subcontinent. Add to this the fact that the great evangelist, St. Paul, had some difficulty converting the Jews to the Christian faith; but he converted the Greeks in droves. Not only St. John, but also St. Paul speaks in terms the Greek mind could readily grasp, as when he says God is He “in Whom we live and move and have our being.” These historical connections do not appear to be accidental, coincidental, nor incidental to the spread of the early Christian Church.

According to The Catholic Encyclopedia, the Greeks strongly responded to Christianity for its moral beauty as well as its truth. A case in point is St. Justin Martyr. He was a man of Greek culture, born in Palestinian Syria about the year 100 A.D, who converted to the faith around 130 A.D. Justin became one of Christianity’s earliest and most powerful apologists, and ended up condemned by the Roman authority for refusing to sacrifice to the pagan gods, for which offense he was summarily executed by the Imperium, along with several other of his “refusnik” co-religionists. The official record of their martyrdom is extant:

“The Prefect Rusticus says: Approach and sacrifice, all of you, to the gods. Justin says: No one in his right mind gives up piety for impiety. The Prefect Rusticus says: If you do not obey, you will be tortured without mercy. Justin replies: That is our desire, to be tortured for Our Lord Jesus, and so to be saved, for that will give us salvation and firm confidence at the more terrible universal tribunal of Our Lord and Saviour. And all the martyrs said: Do as you wish; for we are Christians, and we do not sacrifice to idols. The Prefect Rusticus read the sentence: Those who do not wish to sacrifice to the gods and to obey the emperor will be scourged and beheaded according to the laws. The holy martyrs glorifying God betook themselves to the customary place, where they were beheaded and consummated their martyrdom confessing their Saviour.”

Jules Lebreton writes (at the entry for St. Justin Martyr in Cath. Encycl.) “Justin tries to trace a real bond between philosophy and Christianity: according to him, both one and the other have a part in the Logos, partially disseminated among men and wholly manifest in Jesus Christ.”

Yet for all their apparent similarities and resemblances in many respects, there is a profound difference between Platonic insight and the Christian one: and this pertains to the relations between God and man.

Both Plato and Justin proclaim the transcendent God. Yet for Plato, God is so “beyond” as to be almost impossible of human grasp. Yet Plato felt the “divine pulls” in his own nature. These Plato thought could be accounted for and articulated by an act of pure unaided intellect, that is by nous, in a state of intense contemplation.

Contrast this position with Justin Martyr’s, who insisted that human wisdom was impossible without the testimony of the Prophets (whom God himself had informed and instructed) and the action of the Holy Spirit. For Plato, man’s relations with God consist of operations of the mind. For Justin, they are operations of the heart, of the Spirit. For Justin, God is not a mental abstraction: He is real Personality with whom one can have direct personal relations, in the Spirit.

A later writer, John Scotus Eriugina (ninth century) elaborates the Justinian position, in the process noting that there is a “downward tendency” of the soul towards the conditions of animal existence, and that this has only one remedy: Divine grace, the free gift of the Holy Spirit. “By means of this heavenly gift,” writes William Turner [at the entry for Scotus in the Catholic Encyclopedia], “man is enabled to rise superior to the needs of the sensuous body, to place the demands of reason above those of bodily appetite, and from reason to ascend through contemplation to ideas, and thence by intuition to God Himself.”

The pull of animal nature is an idea we also find in Plato, and also the countervailing pull from the divine Beyond. Man lives in the metaxy, in the “in-between reality” constituted by the two. Man’s task is to resolve this tension, and establish the proper balance that expresses the highest and best development of his human nature. But man must do this entirely by himself by means of nous or reason. There is no spiritual help “extra” to the human psyche available to facilitate this process.

In contrast, as Lebreton points out, Justin Martyr

“…admits that the soul can naturally comprehend what God is, just as it understands that virtue is beautiful … but he denies that the soul without the assistance of the Holy Ghost [Spirit] can see God or contemplate him directly through ecstasy, as the Platonic philosophers contended. And yet this knowledge of God is necessary for us: ‘We cannot know God as we know music, arithmetic, or astronomy’; it is necessary for us to know God not with an abstract knowledge but as we know any person with whom we have relations. The problem which it seems impossible to solve is settled by revelation; God has spoken directly to the Prophets, who in their turn have made Him known to us…. It is the first time in Christian theology that we find so concise an explanation of the difference that separates Christian revelation from human speculation.” [Emphasis added]

* * * * * *

Natural Law, Contingency, and the Scientific Method
The Platonic model encourages us to recognize that the universe is zoon empsychon ennoun, a living creature endowed with soul and intelligence. The myth of the Demiurge describes the world process as a type of incarnation, a dynamic relation of absolute being and contingent becoming evolving in space and time in a manner expressing a perduring taxia–ataxia relation. The Cosmos itself — the totality of all existing things — like its constituents, for example man and even the stars, is an eikon of being-in-becoming, a reflection or image of the divine Idea. Time itself is but a “moving image of eternity.” The life of the cosmos is wholly dependent, contingent on the Idea from which it manifests.

It is a lawful, orderly universe, yet one in which new occurrences are always arising. These new events are coming from, as it were, a “sea of contingency” analogous to Plato’s conception of Space, that is Chora — the infinite field of unformed, pure potentiality.

The immediately foregoing ideas, of course, are not scientific ones strictly speaking. Still, there are elements here that perhaps science would do well to consider, in order to maintain the integrity of its own method. For one thing, it seems science itself, in its disclosure of the regularities of nature, seems to have an in-built tendency to overlook contingency. We may define an event as contingent if a description of it is neither self-evident nor necessary, “if it could have happened differently,” as Ted Peters puts it in his Preface to Pannenberg’s Towards a Theology of Nature.

C. A. Dubray writes [“Teleology,” Cath. Encycl.], “The fact that the world is governed by laws, far from giving any support to the mechanistic conception, is rather opposed to it. A law is not a cause, but the expression of the constant manner in which causes produce their effects.” In other words, natural laws are expressions of observable regularities that occur in the world of existent phenomena in ordinary space-time reality. Thus, the laws themselves have no force as “causes”: they are descriptions.

Yet the focus on regularity inevitably masks the particularity and contingency of unique events. As Ted Peters notes, it is here that “we run into a problem of focus in the scientific community, because virtually all the theoretical attention is given to the regularity of nature’s laws, while the contingency of natural events slips into the nearly invisible background.” Peters continues:

“What researchers concentrate on are the uniformities that can be expressed in timeless equations. A dictionary of equations describing these uniformities allegedly constitutes scientific knowledge…. A closer examination, however, reveals that the applicability of these equations to concrete cases of natural processes requires certain initial and marginal conditions, conditions that in every case are contingent. Only when contingent conditions permit can we expect a natural law to operate as expected.”

To the extent that the scientific method of inquiry is premised on an “If/Then” logical construction — which seems ever to be the case — the method itself is an exercise in contingency, yet nonetheless one in which “Determinacy gets thematized, whereas contingency gets ignored.” Arguably this is a serious bias having epistemological implications; for e.g., “if the laws of classical dynamics are in principle temporally reversible, the actual course of natural events from which those laws have been abstracted is not. The reality of nature is first and foremost a historical reality.”

Pannenberg suggests a corrective for this “bias,” acknowledging: “That modern science so easily lends itself to abuse cannot be prevented in principle. It is one of the risks involved in the abstract study of regularities that either are inherent in nature itself or can be imposed on natural processes [e.g., as in ideological, technical, or engineering solutions]. This risk cannot be met on the level of scientific description itself but must be met first on the level of philosophical reflection on the work of science. It is on this level that the abstract form of scientific description must be considered with special attention to what it is “abstracted from” and what is methodically disregarded in the abstract formulas of science.”

And so contingent conditions — i.e, initial and boundary conditions — must be restored to their proper place in our deliberations, for they “are required for any formula of natural law to be applied. They are contingent at least in that they cannot be derived from the particular formula of law under consideration.… The mathematical formula of a natural law may be valid without regard to time. The physical regularity that is described by such a formula is not independent of time and temporal sequence. But it is only that physical regularity which makes the mathematical formula a law of nature. This suggests that the laws of nature are not eternal or atemporal because the fields of their application, the regularities of natural processes, originate in the course of time. Thus it also becomes understandable that new patterns of regularity emerging in the sequence of time constitute a field of application for a new set of natural laws….”

We may recognize that the total process of natural events presents itself to observation as a mesh of contingency and regularities. It is the task of science to pursue thematically the aspect of regularity. But, asks Pannenberg, can science “ever succeed in bringing into view the entirety of nature as determined in all details by a number of laws that are in any case not infinitely complex? This would mean at the same time that a stage of research is conceivable from which nothing more could be discovered. Many natural scientists have had this nightmare because of the successes of their own research. Fortunately it probably is not a truthful dream.”

For, says Pannenberg, “laws always uncover what is necessary superimposed on what is contingent. Given the undeniable contingency of occurrences in natural events, can we recognize in their special character as occurrences … [that] regularity as their own element in such a way that the presence of regularity can be thought together with the contingency of occurrences, not only under abstraction from the contingency of occurrences?” [Emphasis added]

Which is why Pannenberg advocates an opening up of new viewpoints in scientific research, “not because physical hypotheses or insights can be derived from them but because they open up and enlarge the intellectual space on which the formation of physical hypotheses depends…. In physics also, horizons of questioning have to be opened up first of all in order that hypotheses that arise in them can be examined by experiment and classified theoretically.”

Perhaps we need a greater appreciation of the “fitness” of the scientific method to engage the truly great questions of life, which ever seem to involve the relations of law and contingency. Leibniz propounds two great questions of perennial interest to the human mind: (1) Why are things the way they are and not some other way? (2) Why does anything exist at all?

Such questions, scientists will readily tell you, are beyond the purview of the scientific method. But does that mean such questions have no force or meaning such that they should not be asked at all?

Perhaps the incapability of the scientific method to answer such questions owes to the fact that all the great physical laws are acknowledged to be time-reversible; but we know that existence in space and time is not a time-reversible process. As Pannenberg states, it is a historical process. We might even say it is an evolutionary process.

Which suggests an analogy that might enlighten these questions, sharpen their meanings, and suggest additional questions: an analogy to direct human experience. Pannenberg writes of human beings, who do seem to live in a “time-irreversible,” that is “historical” process:

“Human beings never live only in the now. Rather, they experience their present as heirs of the past and as its active change. They anticipate the future in fear, hope, and planning; and in the light of such anticipation of the future they return to their present and the heritage of their past. The fact that we know of historical continuity is at least also conditioned by this peculiarity of human experience with time. If there is a new event, then it modifies the context of our consciousness of time which is already found present. It throws light back on earlier occurrences which have become a part of our experience already. In the same way, ideas that occur to us throw light on our previous expectations and plans in justifying, fulfilling, modifying, or disappointing and thwarting them. Thus the contingent event always enters already into a context of experience or tradition…. The future, beginning in the present happenings, is thus the origin of the perspective in which the past occurrences are put by every new experience.”

Worldviews and Paradigm Shifts
It is perhaps a truism that we tend to find what we’re looking for by screening out any and all potential elements which do not fit the pattern of our expectation. Arguably, the scientific method may be said inherently to suffer exposure to potential danger from this side, as suggested in the above remarks. Indeed, Schröedinger’s theory of wavefunction seems to predict this. Consider these remarks from Stephen M. Barr [Modern Physics and Ancient Faith, 2003]:

“In quantum theory, as traditionally formulated, there are ‘systems’ and ‘observers.’ Or rather, in any particular case, there is the system and the observer. The observer makes measurements of the system. As long as the system is undisturbed by external influences (that is, as long as it is ‘isolated’), its wavefunction — which is to say its probability amplitudes — will evolve in time by the Schröedinger equation…. However, when a measurement is made of the system the observer must obtain a definite outcome. Suddenly, the probability for the outcome that is actually obtained is no longer what the mathematics said it was just before the measurement, but jumps to 100 percent. And the probabilities for all the alternative outcomes, the ones that did not occur, fall to 0 percent.”

Thus we might say that the “reality” we humans experience ever involves “a moving goal-post.” And as the mover of this goal-post, the human agent is most indispensably involved in this process.

Faced with such “indeterminacy” regarding the foundations of experience, it is not surprising that people usually have recourse to mediating worldviews, or organized frames of ideational reality that constitute the conceptual space in which active experience is engaged and accordingly analyzed and interpreted. Certainly Plato has offered such a model. And so has Nobel laureate Jacques Monod [in Chance and Necessity, 1971]:

“Chance alone is the source of every innovation, of all creation in the biosphere. Pure chance, absolutely free but blind, is at the very root of the stupendous edifice of evolution. The central concept of biology … is today the sole conceivable hypothesis, the only one compatible with observed and tested fact. All forms of life are the product of chance….”

Needless to say, these two models are polar opposite conceptualizations. Yet having received each on “good authority,” which do we choose?

Such are not idle considerations; for as James Hannam points out [“The Development of Scientific and Religious Ideas,” 2003], “grand theories … often suffer death by detail where it is found that up close the situation is too complicated for the theory to handle…. [Yet] in the end, after it has changed the course of the river of enquiry, the theory can end up as a mortlake cut off from the general flow….”

Hannam cites historian Thomas Kuhn, who documents an historical process he terms “paradigm shift,” describing a situation in which the findings of authoritative science move “out of science and into practically every other field of human endeavor.” Once a given, albeit partial or even defective theory becomes “dominant,” writes Hannam, “far from being thrown out, a falsified theory is enhanced to deal with new information until such time as it finally collapses under the weight of anomalous results. Then, after a chaotic period, a new theory emerges that can deal with the anomalies and normal service resumes…. A paradigm refers to but one field, say classical mechanics or health policy whereas the ideology/worldview is the general background that underpins all the paradigms.”

The worldview (or ideology, if you prefer), for better or worse, implicitly shapes the background knowledge of thinking agents to which new experiences constantly are being conformed. Hannam says that worldview “is often so deeply embedded in the psyche that it is very rarely considered explicitly except by specialists,” but that nonetheless, “the worldview is seen as [a] self-confirming fact of life and hence it is not strictly rational…. The existence of a dominant worldview does not mean that a particular individual is unable to think outside the box but rather that his ideas are unlikely to fall on fertile ground. Unless new ideas can be stated in a language that makes them comprehensible to his peers, his intention in writing will not be met.”

Which is the not-too-subtle way to put the fact that every man has a worldview, without exception, whether articulate or inarticulate; and that somehow, for the “intention of writing to be met” — that is, for accurate and meaningful (i.e., successful) communication of ideas to take place — some deeper, common ground of shared truth must first be accessed, for the purpose of providing a more capacious intellectual space in which the human pursuit of knowledge and wisdom might unfold or evolve from its present point of attainment.

But where today in our modern world is such a common ground or field to be found? Hannam proposes the examination of the history of ideas as a possibly useful method in the search for common ground. He writes,

“To examine the history of ideas the only fair way to proceed would seem to place before ourselves the evidence and authority that the historical agents had before them and assume they acted rationally on that basis. Otherwise, there is no hope of ever tracing intellectual development because ‘cause and effect’ assumes some sort of logical causality that is impossible with non-rational agents. The best that could be hoped for would be a catalog of mental positions, with no way to say how one led to another except by being pushed by blind exterior forces. This might be precisely what determinists are advocating but they would have to give up any hope of finding causes and restrict themselves to explanations.”

Perhaps we moderns would do well to reconsider the common assumption that people living before our own time were somehow inferior in knowledge, experience, and observational powers as compared with our own status as enlightened individuals. Arguably, the ancient world produced some of the most powerful thinkers in the history of mankind, formulating ideas that were, in the words of Hannam, “the fruits of unfettered metaphysical speculation that inevitably hits on the right answer occasionally.”

Democritus, for example, proposed a theory predicting the atom as the ultimate constituent of matter, more than two-thousand years before the technical means existed to isolate atoms experimentally or, as Hannam notes, any “useful applications for them” could be found. Then it was discovered that the atom itself is an ordered constellation of even finer parts. There seems to be an historical progression of ideas here, the new building up on a framework originally laid up in the past, modifying it, improving on it in light of new insights and technical capabilities.

Hannam gives another example of more recent vintage: “Copernicus needed Nicole Oresme’s solution as to why we do not feel the movement of the Earth even though in Oresme’s time it was just a curiosity as no one thought the Earth actually was moving … each new idea, once accepted, shifts the boundaries of the worldview and makes it possible for further new ideas to be accepted into the pale.”

We can extend the examples even further. Reimann constructed a geometry, apparently because his mind could grasp the logic and beauty it revealed for its own sake. But at the time, it had no apparent “external referent” in the field of nature. It was a beautiful and glorious abstraction — until Einstein came along, and picked it up “off the shelf” as it were, to become the very language of relativity theory.

Thus it might be said that the evolution or “progress” of science depends on successive enlargements of the conceptual space it requires to do its work. In other words, science inherently is a participation in the historicity of the world.

Whatever our personal worldview, perhaps it would be well to recall that science is an historical process. Perhaps this understanding could open up additional, needed conceptual space that science itself requires in order to advance.


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: aquinas; augustine; christianity; churchhistory; contingency; cosmology; epistemology; justinmartyr; metaphysics; newton; ontology; plato; quantumfieldtheory; relativitytheory; schroedinger; spacetime; theology
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To: beckett; Alamo-Girl; Eastbound; marron; ckilmer; escapefromboston; freeagle; Scarchin; ...
The soul ...is like a drunkard, when she touches change...But when returning into herself she reflects, then she passes into the other world, the region of purity, and eternity, and immortality, and unchangeableness, which are her kindred....

Lovely, beckett! I gather Plato wishes us to understand that the human being lives both in time and timelessness, in physical existence and also in eternity.

Thank you so much for posting these beautiful passages, and also for your very kind words.

81 posted on 12/03/2004 12:02:03 PM PST by betty boop
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To: Taliesan; Alamo-Girl; Eastbound; marron; ckilmer; escapefromboston; freeagle; Scarchin; ...
You might think that the Christian East has more affinity with Plato, seeing the eventual friendship the West struck up with Aristotle, but they (the East) would not think so.... I say this as a lifelong protestant who loves both traditions (though perhaps both would sniff at me!) and thus has no dog in the fight, since we don't do Theology at all in the protestant tradition. :-)

I am definitely going to have to get a hold of Vladimir Lossky, Taliesan! Thank you so much for this most informative post.

82 posted on 12/03/2004 1:23:37 PM PST by betty boop
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To: Doctor Stochastic; stripes1776
Get with the (Erlanger) program, Betty.

I'd be glad to check it out, Doc. Got a source for me?

Thanks so much for writing!

83 posted on 12/03/2004 1:27:27 PM PST by betty boop
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To: cornelis; stripes1776; Taliesan; betty boop
Regarding the brief back and forth on the early Church Fathers and the "clear distinction between the created world and the uncreated" who stated that "there is no similarity between the two whatsoever" I would like to suggest that the viewpoint stripes has expressed denoting a distinction between eastern and western Christianity and the role of Augustine is, in my opinion, right on the mark and is well supplemented by the additional names he brings to the table after introducing the idea. I also do not believe this dispute originates with anything that is included in this inspiring essay -- good work betty -- but may in fact originate in something that is outside of it, which is directly related to the concepts of "the created world and the uncreated," namely, the distinct ways in which western and eastern Christianity viewed the separation of the sacred and the secular, which is much more important in the west due to Augustine's influence.

I've only just finished the essay and I would like to ponder a thing or two it introduces, but I want to return later to put up an additional post on something I think can help to inform its content, namely; the intellectual ferment within the Hellenistic and Roman world during the period of the rise of Christianity and specifically its integration of Greek philosophical ideas between the time of St. Paul and up to Augustine. The manner in which that ferment was resolved had tremendous implications for the development of scientific thought and the vestiges of this resolution remain with us today.

I don't have the time to put this up now, but I'll be back later to expand on what I have just stated.

This was a thought-provoking essay betty.
84 posted on 12/03/2004 3:29:17 PM PST by StJacques
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To: StJacques; Alamo-Girl; marron; stripes1776; Taliesan; ckilmer; Eastbound; escapefromboston; ...
I want to return later to put up an additional post on something I think can help to inform its content, namely; the intellectual ferment within the Hellenistic and Roman world during the period of the rise of Christianity and specifically its integration of Greek philosophical ideas between the time of St. Paul and up to Augustine. The manner in which that ferment was resolved had tremendous implications for the development of scientific thought and the vestiges of this resolution remain with us today.

Oh, you are most welcome here, StJacques! Take all the time you need to do it; but I for one am waiting with "baited breath" for your exposition on these points.

Looking forward to hearing from you, I'm so glad for your post!

85 posted on 12/03/2004 6:42:32 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
Google is Our Friend

It was mostly meant as a joke. The Erlanger program is a method of studying geometry invented by Felix Klein.

86 posted on 12/03/2004 8:08:02 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: stripes1776

To him it was indeed a ratio, i.e. the slope, of two infinitely small numbers.
////////////////
does the slope toward zero have the same curve as the slope toward infinity. or is "slope" in this instance merely an attempt to map a two dimensional figure (slope) onto, in turn, a one dimensional (zero) and four dimensions (infinity/eternity)

If they did have the same "slope" would that suggest that, say, a black hole is the inverse in "relationship" to whatever is "outside" the universe. What would inverse mean in this case.

I am no mathematician/physicist but as far as I can tell there is a very slushy boundary between what is countable--using the definitions for "countable" as set down in this thread--on the very large scale and what is countable on the very small scale. Things don't just cut off. Now your countable and now you're not.

Rather, things become less and less countable until gradually...infinity--or zero as the case may be.

But I'm not so sure that they become less countable in the same way. (But if they became less countable in the same way they might have the same slope:-)


87 posted on 12/03/2004 9:34:43 PM PST by ckilmer
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To: betty boop; All
I’d like to offer some background information and links for the discussion.

Alexander the Great

betty boop noted that Alexander the Great was taught by Aristotle who was taught by Plato who was taught by Socrates. I'd like to add two comments:

(1) Alexander “normalized” the Greek language to a common Greek which greatly facilitated the spread of the Gospel and general knowledge throughout the Greek speaking world and

(2) Daniel prophesied about Alexander the Great. Josephus recorded this concerning the (alleged) confrontation with Alexander at Jerusalem:

Flavius Josephus in his Jewish antiquities 11.317-345

And when Jaddus understood that Alexander was not far from the city, he went out in procession, with the priests and the multitude of the citizens. The procession was venerable, and the manner of it different from that of other nations. It reached to a place called Sapha, which name, translated into Greek, signifies a prospect, for you have thence a prospect both of Jerusalem and of the temple. And when the Phoenicians and the Samarians that followed him thought they should have liberty to plunder the city, and torment the high-priest to death, which the king's displeasure fairly promised them, the very reverse of it happened; for Alexander, when he saw the multitude at a distance, in white garments, while the priests stood clothed with fine linen, and the high-priest in purple and scarlet clothing, with his mitre on his head, having the golden plate whereon the name of God was engraved, he approached by himself, and adored that name, and first saluted the high-priest.

The Jews also did all together, with one voice, salute Alexander, and encompass him about; whereupon the kings of Syria and the rest were surprised at what Alexander had done, and supposed him disordered in his mind. However, Parmenion alone went up to him, and asked him how it came to pass that, when all others adored him, he should adore the high-priest of the Jews? To whom he replied, 'I did not adore him, but that God who has honored him with his highpriesthood; for I saw this very person in a dream, in this very habit, when I was at Dion in Macedonia, who, when I was considering with myself how I might obtain the dominion of Asia, exhorted me to make no delay, but boldly to pass over the sea thither, for that he would conduct my army, and would give me the dominion over the Persians; whence it is that, having seen no other in that habit, and now seeing this person in it, and remembering that vision, and the exhortation which I had in my dream, I believe that I bring this army under the Divine conduct, and shall therewith conquer Darius, and destroy the power of the Persians, and that all things will succeed according to what is in my own mind.'

And when he had said this to Parmenion, and had given the high-priest his right hand, the priests ran along by him, and he came into the city. And when he went up into the temple, he offered sacrifice to God, according to the high-priest's direction, and magnificently treated both the high-priest and the priests. And when the Book of Daniel was showed him wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended. [3] And as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present. But the next day he called them to him, and bid them ask what favors they pleased of him; whereupon the high-priest desired that they might enjoy the laws of their forefathers, and might pay no tribute on the seventh year.[4] He granted all they desired. And when they asked him that he would permit the Jews in Babylon and Media to enjoy their own laws also, he willingly promised to do hereafter what they desired. And when he said to the multitude, that if any of them would enlist themselves in his army, on this condition, that they should continue under the laws of their forefathers, and live according to them, he was willing to take them with him, many were ready to accompany him in his wars. …

Justin Martyr

Justin Martyr is beautifully discussed in the above article. For anyone interested, I'd like to offer a link to his writings: Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I – First Apology of Justin Martyr

In the above, Martyr states that Plato had “borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world” from the Hebrew prophets (Moses in particular).

Martyr also believed that Plato was (unknowingly) speaking of Christ in Timoeus where he said "He placed him crosswise in the universe".

Philo of Alexandria

Philo hasn't been mentioned yet, but Lurkers may be interested in reading more about him: IEP: Philo of Alexandria

Philo was a Hellenized Jew who lived 20 BC to 50 AD, in Christ’s incarnate time on earth. He is noted for trying to reconcile Jewish thought with Greek philosophy.

Of particular interest to this discussion might be his Model of Creation and his response to Eternal Creation:

Thus Philo postulates a crucial modification to the Platonic doctrine of the Forms, namely that God himself eternally creates the intelligible world of Ideas as his thoughts. The intelligible Forms are thus the principle of existence to the sensible things which are given through them their existence. This simply means in mystical terms that nothing exists or acts except God. On this ideal model God then orders and shapes the formless matter through the agency of his Logos (Her. 134, 140) into the objects of the sensible world:

Now we must form a somewhat similar opinion of God [Philo makes an analogy to a plan of the city in the mind of its builder], who, having determined to found a mighty state, first of all conceived its form in his mind, according to which form he made a world perceptible only by the intellect, and then completed one visible to the external senses, using the first one as a model (Op. 19).

Philo claims a scriptural support for these metaphysics saying that the creation of the world was after the pattern of an intelligible world (Gen. 1:17) which served as its model.

88 posted on 12/03/2004 9:46:40 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
LOLOL! I can't believe how sloppily I worded that last post. Must be tired ... off to bed now...
89 posted on 12/03/2004 9:53:20 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: stripes1776; cliff630; Alamo-Girl; marron; ckilmer; Eastbound; escapefromboston; freeagle; ...
Hello Stripes! When I wrote earlier to suggest that perhaps integers are analogous to time, and real numbers to eternity, I was thinking in terms of the number line that is composed of both. The reals comprise both rational and irrational numbers, each of which can be imagined as having an infinite number of digits to the right of the decimal point. The digit series of a rational number presents itself as a sequence of elements that eventually will be found to repeat, ad infinitum. This is not the case for the irrational numbers, whose digit series is found to be not a sequence at all (at least sequence or periodicity has not been detected yet), but an infinite series of digits that appear to be distributed at random. The most famous example of an irrational number is pi of course, which does not appear to be a countable number at all, yet is a quantity fundamental to the development of Euclidean geometry. On the number line, pi appears in the “band” between the finite integers 3 and 4. With respect to the rationals and the irrationals, we seem to be looking at two completely different orders of infinity, e.g., one that is “quasi-finite” (the rationals), and the other “infinite” (the irrationals). The number line carries both types of numbers, integers and reals, both rational and irrational, all lined up “cheek to jowl,” so to speak. The “picture” one gets is that of a line smoothly progressing in time, with bursts of infinity interposed all along its extent pointing out of time to timelessness. And the number line itself is infinite, “in both directions” indicated by <0 and >0. Truly it appears that infinities come in different orders, or “sizes.”

I don’t know whether this makes any sense. I admit that when it comes to higher mathematics, I still have my “training wheels on.” So feel free to correct my understanding as needed: I have a lot to learn.

You write that there is “no number for infinity in the real number system,” thus the idea of infinity must be presented symbolically — roughly speaking, the symbol takes the form of a “snake biting its own tail,” with a good “twist” in the middle (so to speak). You point out that infinity is a direction. I don’t dispute this. Yet paradoxically, direction implies a process in time. In what way can we reconcile the idea of process in time with infinity, which you note corresponds to the idea of eternity (or timelessness)?

This problem has preoccupied philosophers since ancient times. Plotinus (204–270 A.D.) argued that time and the sequence of its movements are understandable only under the presupposition of a complete wholeness of time that he termed eternity, aion. As Wolfhart Pannenberg writes (Toward a Theology of Nature),

“The whole of time, according to Plotinus, cannot be conceived as the whole of a sequence of moments, because the sequence of temporal moments can be indefinitely extended by adding further units.… In his conception the total unity of the whole of life is indispensable in the interpretation of the time sequence, because it hovers over that sequence as the future wholeness that is intended in every moment of time, so that the significance of eternity for the interpretation of time in Plotinus results in a primacy of the future concerning the nature of time….”

Thus, “the infinite has priority over any finite part.” And in Kant’s development of Plotinus’ concept of time, this statement applies not only to the case of time, but also to the case of space — which to my mind at least seems to anticipate a crucial insight of modern relativity theory, and also of quantum field theory.

Pannenberg points out that this concept corresponds to “the Israelite understanding of eternity as unlimited duration throughout time,” i.e., the concept of time that runs throughout the Old Testament. (To my mind, this idea seems roughly analogous to the irrationals on the number line.)

It appears Pannenberg’s own model is a development from the Plotinian insight into the nature of time. He writes:

“I have developed this concept of eternity from the human experience of time, from the relativity of the distinction of past, present, and future corresponding to the relativity of the directions in space. In view of the relativity of the modes of time to the aspect of the human being experiencing time, this resulted in the assumption that all time, if it could be, so to speak, surveyed from a ‘place’ outside the course of time, would have to appear as contemporaneous.”

To borrow Alamo-Girl’s perceptive description here, in other words, from this perspective, the 4D block would appear, not as a progression of discrete events moving from past, present, to future, but as a “plane” or “brane.” Pannenberg continues:

“This assumption is confirmed by a unique phenomenonon of the human experience of time through the experience of an ‘expanded present’ in which not only the punctiliar now but everything on which a position may be taken still or already is considered as present…. Understood in the sense of the suggestions above, the concept of eternity [i.e., infinity] comprehends all time and everything temporal in itself….

“The worldview of the theory of relativity also can be understood in the sense of a last contemporaneousness of all events that for us are partitioned into temporal sequence.” [ibid, p. 100f.]

Of course, as Pannenberg himself notes, the perspective from which one could view such things “would not coincide with any position in the world process.”

In Pannenberg’s model, “creation can be conceived, on the ground of the theory of relativity, as an eternal act that comprises the total process of finite reality, while that which is created, whose existence happens in time, originates and passes away temporally.”

Thus, the way I figure it, eternity is not itself “duration;” rather it is the “matrix” in which ‘durations’ — temporal events (seemingly exhibiting the idea of, not only ‘duration,’ but also of ‘passing away’) — take place. Including scientific observations and measurements, which are often based on “abstractions” such as Planck time – the teensiest piece of “punctiliar time” that the human mind can measure or grasp.

Thus, eternity is the “Eternal Now” – which is not a datum of human sensory experience, for sure; rather it is a concept to which the human mind (and heart) can aspire and understand.

* * * * * *

Thank you so much, Stripes, for the discussion of Liebnitz’s understanding of his own work and what the academy has seemingly reduced it to. I was unaware that mathematics or the natural sciences could ever be exposed to the work of the deconstructionists, who ever seek to separate the “author” from his “text,” so as to make of the “text,” in effect, whatever they want. I guess I’ve been mistaken about this. Yet to me, the “author’s intention” is indispensable to the understanding of any “text.”

Just goes to show you how irredeemably “old-fashioned” I am.

Thank you so much for your informative and thought-provoking post.

90 posted on 12/04/2004 10:53:21 AM PST by betty boop
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To: Doctor Stochastic

Thanks, Doc! Surely, "Google is our friend." I'm sure I'll have better luck in the search for Felix Klein than I did with my search for "Erlanger."


91 posted on 12/04/2004 10:56:00 AM PST by betty boop
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To: Alamo-Girl; All
Excellent, Alamo-Girl! Truly the Daniel prophecy regarding Alexander is amazing. But there it is. Thank you so much for the links to Justin Martyr and to Philo. Philo's insight that "the creation of the world was after the pattern of an intelligible world (Gen. 1:17) which served as its model" indicates a bridge between the Platonic Idea and the Israelite understanding of the creation. And Justin's observation that Plato was (unknowingly) speaking of Christ in Timaeus when Justin says "[Plato] placed him [i.e., the Demiurge] crosswise in the universe" indicates a bridge between the Platonic Idea and the Logos theory of the early Christian Church.

True ideas "evolve," it seems. Thank you so much for your excellent post and invaluable links. I expect to be spending some time with both Justin and Philo very soon!

92 posted on 12/04/2004 11:10:11 AM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
Compare the Platonic creation myth with the philosophy of Dionysius the [Pseudo-]Areopagite, said to be the Greek converted by St. Paul in Acts, 17:34. For Dionyius, the “names of God” — the divine qualities — are goodness, being, life, wisdom, power, and justice.

He is called Dionysius the Pseudo-Areopagite because he was a fake. The so-called writings of Dionysius have been demonstrated as fakes from no earlier than the 7th Century CE. Dionysius attempted to gain acceptance of his philosphical bent by anacrhonistically projecting them into the First Century and as coming from the Apostle Paul.

Get this, plain and simple: the marriage of Greek philosophy with the Bible was one of the biggest errors ever perpetrated on humanity. The so-called church fathers like Martyr, Origen, Tertullian, Augustine and Clement had nothing in common with the Jewish sages known to us as the Apostles. None.

Greek thinking has NOTHING in common with biblical thinking.

Philosophy attempts to discover truth, and instead arrives at 'your truth'. This is the oldest deception: that men are wise enough to go beyond the plain revelation of God's words.

In the Garden, the Serpent asked, "Has indeed God said..." And attempted to use a rational argument for the Woman. The Woman used rational thought to annul God's instructions (after all, she did not even know what death was).

Justin Martyr considered Plato to be inspired by God and that his words were a type of Scripture. Origen considered Plato's explanation of Logos to be the SAME as John 1.

A philosophical approach to God's Word is merely slavery for the mind. Martyr, Origen, Clement, Augustine, Aquinas et al were WRONG.

Colossians 2:8: Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Messiah.
93 posted on 12/04/2004 11:28:27 AM PST by safisoft (Give me Torah!)
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To: safisoft
Greek thinking has NOTHING in common with biblical thinking

St. Paul was much less extreme. When he came to Athens, he sought out few points of common ground. Those Greeks actually had more in commone with Christianity than so many -isms of contemporary thought.

If some of the Fathers were overly influenced by Greek thinking, there ought to be some credit at least for engaging the conversation and noting the important differences. That's much harder to do than blanket denials. Stripes1776 provided a list of those who engage the difficult issues and wish to point out the limits of philosophy. (A side note: the absolutist divide between Greek and Biblical thinking seems to be a product of modern forms of hyper rationalism.) In short, the fact that the two so easily meld is ample evidence that they have a lot in common.

94 posted on 12/04/2004 12:11:54 PM PST by cornelis
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To: cornelis
the fact that the two so easily meld is ample evidence that they have a lot in common.

A rationalist statement.
95 posted on 12/04/2004 12:24:12 PM PST by safisoft (Give me Torah!)
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To: safisoft

The coming of Jesus marks the end of bible and also the end of a specifically Jewish Story. However, the old testament is not a specifically Jewish story until Abraham (though the jewish geneologists can trace their line back to adam.) Furthermore God's original revelation of himself is not unique to the Jews. St Paul mentions this twice in two very different contexts.

Here are two examples. Notice in verse Acts 17:28 that Paul mentions that certain Greek Poets have witnessed the Creator God. In the second example below in Romans 1:20 Paul mentions that even barbarians have witnessed the Creator God (so they too are without excuse when they change from worshiping the Creator to worshipping created things.)

Acts 17 :: King James Version (KJV)

16
Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
/////////////////////////////////////
Romans 1 :: King James Version (KJV)

14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


96 posted on 12/04/2004 12:52:58 PM PST by ckilmer
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To: safisoft

Are you faulting what is reasonable?


97 posted on 12/04/2004 12:57:49 PM PST by cornelis
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To: cornelis

Stripes1776 provided a list of those who engage the difficult issues and wish to point out the limits of philosophy.
//////////////////
philosphy ends in the personality and character of man
theology ends in the personality and character of God.


98 posted on 12/04/2004 1:12:28 PM PST by ckilmer
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To: ckilmer; betty boop
does the slope toward zero have the same curve as the slope toward infinity.

You ask very intersting questions. Let me try to address the mathematical side of your questions as briefly as I can, but certainly not briefly enough.

Much of mathematics today uses the real number system in which all numbers are finite. This includes zero. However, there is a restiction on zero that the other real numbers don't have: division by zero is undefined. The reason is that division by zero is an infinite process.

Mathematicians who confine their considerations to the real number system have a symbol for infinity, but it is NOT a number. It is a process of applying operations like addition or multiplication or substraction or division forever. And since most mathematicians die before they reach forever, they just call this infinity and or say this is undefined and move on to the next equation.

Slope is a ratio of two numbers. Consider a right triangle. The hypotenuse which is the slanted side obviously has a slope. To calculate it divide the length of the vertical side of the triangle by the length of the horizontal side. The result of that division is the slope of the hypotenuse and it is constant for every point on the hypotenuse.

Now keep the vertical and horizontal legs of the triangle the same, but replace the slanted line for the hypotenuse with a piece of cooked speghetti with lots of curves. What is the slope of this piece of curvey spaghetti? It obviously changes for every point on the curved line that represents the spaghetti.

Back 350 years ago when Liebniz helped to invent the calculus, mathematicians were not resticted to the real number system. They also used numbers called infinitesimals which are so small that you can think of them as zero. To find the slope of the spaghetti curve, Leibniz shrank the vertical and horizontal sides left over from our original triangle until those sides became infinitesimals. So you can think of this as dividing zero by zero, i.e. 0/0. The amazing result was an equation that gave him a finite slope that varied for every point on the curved spaghetti. Wow!!!

About 100 years ago mathematicians became very uneasy about infinitesimals and dividing 0 by 0, so they threw out infinitesimals, and redefined calculus in terms of the concept of limits and real numbers only.

Now, when I first took calculus, I was lost. I didn't understand limits at all and found them confusing and cumbersome. I started studying the history of the development of calculus. Since Leibniz used infinitesimals, I began to think of calculus in terms of infinitesimals. A light bulb went on, and I began to solve calculus problems with ease. But I didn't dare to tell my instructor that I was secretly thinking about dividing infinitesimals instead of taking limits of real numbers.

My purpose for bring all this up was that betty was thinking about writing an essay about numbers and eternity. I thought I would offer more food for thought if she cares to chew on any of it. I will let the philosophers on this thread address your philisophical questions.

99 posted on 12/04/2004 1:20:59 PM PST by stripes1776
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To: ckilmer
philosphy ends in the personality and character of man theology ends in the personality and character of God.

I also think of it in a similar way. Something with the direction that the two take. There is, of course, theology that ends in the personality of man, because that's where it begins. So where things begin is also a difficulty.

In their most famous works, both Augustine and Calvin begin with the difficulty of a beginning. Neither resolve it by getting rid of one for the other. That's smart. Otherwise you'd have 100% God and no man or 100% man and no God.

There's an excellent little book that has helped me in this regard by Etienne Gilson: Reason and Revelation in the Middle Ages. He compares those schools who hold the priamcy with reason (Averroes)and those who hold the primacy with faith (Tertullian).

100 posted on 12/04/2004 1:31:35 PM PST by cornelis
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